A great WW1 Photo with Lugers

[John Sabato]

on ebay... in Germany.

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=34648

[Navy]

Note that they are worn in two differenr fashions..straight and cross draw.

Tom A.

[Dean]

Interesting picture. Most of them are not even looking into the camera. They seem like statues.

[Roadkill]

Been looking at this a little , the word "Parole"
means secret word or "password". This code word is "Jonguyon" So there you have the daily password. The 24/25.16 are the dates its in effect. The challenge word is "arrest" the reply word is "lokal". And the writing on the box on the wall says "100 guard cartridges". So what you are looking at is a guard house with the password, the challenge and the reply posted. And the "arrest & lokal" actually means to take over control of the bar. What caught my attention is that the writing is in chalk, and not on the photograph as it usually is to denote information about the photograph.

rk

[jamese]

What else is of interest, these guys are from an artillery unit carrying standard P08â??s. Based on the Picklehaube and the shoulder straps the photo is pre-1917 and is one of the Wurttemburg units.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Dean, They probably just got orders to report to the front....Not too much to smile about in the middle of the biggest war on the planet.

The fellow on the right seems to be wearing a sabre.

Seems the style of wearing your holster in wartime Germany was not rigedly prescribed by the German higher ups. Anyone ever see any directives about this? Jerry Burney

[Heinmot]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair:
<strong> The fellow on the right seems to be wearing a sabre.

LOOKS MORE LIKE A BAYONET/SEITENGEWEHR TO ME.

Seems the style of wearing your holster in wartime Germany was not rigedly prescribed by the German higher ups.

SURE DOES. LOOKS LIKE A PRETTY EASY COME EASY GO SETTING.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

[Ron Smith]

It's kind of fasinating to think that one of us. May have one of the very Lugers they are wearing, right now. Neat photo!
Ron

[Torquemada055]

I know it's an awful ugly helmet, but, did you notice that they have a ball and not a spike on the top.
I wonder why in all the other photos I've seen they had spikes and these guy's don't ?

[Ron Wood]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I wonder why in all the other photos I've seen they had spikes and these guy's don't ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Because they belong to an artillery unit. These units wore the distictive ball top pickelhaube that was representative of the "cannon ball" projectile. Very much like a branch insignia today.

[jamese]

Ron,
I certainly respect your opinions and as forum members go, you are one of the leading authorities. But I have to disagree with you on this one.

I may be way off base, but my understanding the reason the artillery units had the â??ballâ?� instead of the point on top, was more of a practical mater and not cosmetic.

Apparently the movements of artillery men while loading and unloading their field guns, bending , up and down ect....in close proximity to the other members, the spike caused a few eye injuries.

So the â??Ballâ?� top was adopted instead of the spike.

Iâ??ll attempt to find the ref material concerning this information and post it.

Jim

[Ron Wood]

Jim,

That is certainly an interesting take on the use of the ball top, and I hope you can find the reference material you seek.

I believe that there is very little that was practical about the early German "pickelhauben" and other headgear. They certainly were more decorative than practical and really marked the end of an era when uniforms conveyed both the "branch" as well as the status of the wearer. Spikes of officers often attained ridiculous heights to "one up" those who could not afford a custom helmet or were not of "noble blood". Garde eagles and Death Heads embellished elite unit headgear. I am of the opinion that the â??kugelspitzeâ?� of the artillery helmet was more a distinguishing symbol than a practical application, but I would be very happy to be proven wrong.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Jamese, You are kidding right? These Soldiers are working around tons of explosive steel, horses that kick and wheels that crush, not to mention the death and destruction reigned down on them by the Allies and the Germans decide to change their helmets because someone could lose an eye? What next, they round over the ends of their bayonets? War is a dangerous business and I would conjecture that the spike on the top of their pickelhauben would have been about the least dangerous item in the deadly inventory. It is only in recent times that the loss of one person's eye would cause the upheaval of a whole army's uniform requirements and that is a phenomenon brought about by litigation and the ACLU of this Century. Back at the turn of the Century it was expected that a few people lose an eye and if they did, tough luck. Of course this is only conjecture on my part and comes from studying Military history and personal accounts of Soldiers during the Great War. The German Military was not as easily changed as one might imagine since it was a giant bureaucracy and if change was made it was only after many months of tests and trials.They were also very symbolic and if one studies their uniforms it becomes immediately apparent that meaning was given to any and all differences among rank and branch of service. I have to throw in with Ron here and I would dearly love to be proven wrong as well as it would blow my whole theory on why the German Army did things the way they did. Let us know what you come up with and in the meantime I will Email George Anderson about this. He is quite knowledgeable about this subject I understand. Jerry Burney

[jamese]

Ron & Jerry,

Ron, I agree that the there is very little that was practical about the early German "pickelhauben" and it didnâ??t take long for the Germans to realize that. In a little more than 2 years after the start of the War , the official headdress changed to the Steal Helmet.

No Jerry Iâ??m not kidding , while you observation is correct you failed to realize that the "pickelhauben" as official head dress was established in 1800â??s, long before â??the death and destruction reigned down on them by the Alliesâ?� and fact is, the Germans did decide to change their helmets because they realized that the pickelhauben offered little in the way of protection.

I am searching dilligently for the ref materal concerning this matter.

Jerry, by the way I hope your recovery is going well !
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Jim

[George Anderson]

Ron's on the money. The Kugel represents a cannon ball and was intended to differentiate arty troops from others. Had the Germans been concerned about poking out eyes I should think that they would have switched all troops to shakos which were in wide use amongst some machinegun units, Jaegers, some naval units and air ship units.

Had the Prussians, Saxons, Wurters, etc been concerned about the gunners' eyes, the Bavarians weren't as they retained the pickel up until 1915. Furthermore, German gunners weren't the only ones to sport Kugelhelmen.

After 1871 a whole raft of countries adopted the Pickelhaube look. The Russians not only picked up the pickel but their heavy guard cav copied the Prussian Guard du Corps and their gunners wore Kugelhelmen.

In addition to the Russians, the Pickel was copied by the Danes and Swedes, Spain and its lookalikes in Latin America and of course the US Army and Marines. The spike helmet of the latter two was significantly modified.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Jim, Right you are! I got carried away! Allies being a general term for whoever was fighting off the Germans at the time...Typically a WW2 term though.

My recovery is coming along faster than I have any right to expect. I can walk without assistance of a cane but with a limp because the muscle needs strengthening and I do that by walking a mile or so a day. In another two to three weeks I will be back to normal. Physically that is!

Interesting subject on the pickelhauben though. I have often wondered if the Germans thought they were anything but decorative. Ever since steel was in widespread use it seems apparent that it could be used for protection. That was decades before the 1800's.

Jim, If you do find the reference you are looking for it would be interesting to see in what context it was written and who wrote it...Jerry

[jamese]

Gentlemen
For the moment Iâ??ll stand corrected, because I canâ??t the ref material. However this is one of those obscure things that when you read it, strikes you funny and you place it in the back of your mind. Not remembering the exact place to find it again.

I have skimmed through 3 of my 6 books on the Germany Artillery and at some point in time I will come across the information again and will post it to the board.( Assuming I can remember that I need to post it)

As I recall the text dealt specially with the belief that the round ball worn by the artillery units represented the â??cannon ballâ?� and the text went on to state the information I posted previous.

While researching for this information, I did come across something of interest. On September 21, 1915 by General Purssian Army Order â??All Spikes were to be removed from helmetsâ?�. Itâ??s interesting to note that the steal helmet wasnâ??t introduced until the spring of 1916 and of general issue in 1917.

One can only speculate why the order to remove the spikes were issued ?

Jerry I'm glad that your up and around !

Jim
<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

[jamese]

Sorry,
I forgot to post the referance

The information about the removel of the spikes came from:

"Imperial Germany Army Handbook"
by D.B. Nash published 1980

(getting old I guess)

Jim