Erfurt 1917 for review

photo-war · 05-31-2015, 06:00 AM

Hello! I have a chance to trade this Erfurt 1917 that has Reichswehr property stamp and double unit marked. From my point of view it looks ok with all original parts but good advices from forum members are always welcome.

Are there any red flags to deal with this Erfurt?

Thanks in advance!
Alexander

photo-war · 05-31-2015, 06:01 AM

More photos

DavidJayUden · 05-31-2015, 09:17 AM

I've not seen those markings on the rear toggle pin. Maybe others can help.
Overall it appears to be unmolested. Of course the magazine is a later substitution, common to Weimar guns.
So I'm not seeing any glaring red flags, but it all comes down to what value is being assigned the gun in the trade deal.
Let's see what the others have to say.
dju

George Anderson · 05-31-2015, 09:21 AM

The rear axel pin appears to be a replacement due to wear. The marking is the size(diameter) variance from standard.

DonVoigt · 05-31-2015, 10:47 AM

Pretty cool pistol.
The S.C. is the Schupo of Cassel, the S.Ka. is the Schupo of Kassel(after spelling of the town name changed!).

Very neat transition on one piece. If you decide not to get it, let me know. I have another
Luger property number 113, I could start a sub-really speciality collection if I had two!

Ron Wood · 05-31-2015, 11:01 AM

Unless it is priced way out of line, buy it. It is an excellent example and looks right as rain.

photo-war · 05-31-2015, 12:06 PM

Many thanks for opinions! I appreciate your help with this P.08. Sounds like a very juicy fruit to me, hope to get it in a few weeks.

Best regards,
Alexander

dz · 05-31-2015, 12:06 PM

I thought some of the finish was redone, but maybe I'm wrong.

Sergio Natali · 05-31-2015, 01:51 PM

Alexander

For what I can see from the pictures to me it looks quite a fine Luger.
Much depends on its price, anyway I think it's a nice find.

Sergio

nukem556 · 05-31-2015, 08:04 PM

It looks pretty good, but the frame rail in front of the sideplate looks odd,like its been grinded.

Mac Cat · 05-31-2015, 08:35 PM

Front right frame above the trigger looks like it has no color !?
It could be the glare from the lighting, but the edge is irregular (3rd photo)
Looks like normal color in Photo #1 and #12.
I can't think of any reason to grind that area.

Locking bolt looks like it is numbered "67".

I love the unit markings and proofs.

cirelaw · 05-31-2015, 09:29 PM

When did they cease applying unit numbers or other like markings on lugers?

DavidJayUden · 05-31-2015, 10:46 PM

I just bought a late WW1 Erfurt with light tool marks along the underside of that frame rail. The takedown lever works very hard and apparently brute force and hardened tools were the solution.
dju

ithacaartist · 06-01-2015, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

When did they cease applying unit numbers or other like markings on lugers?

IIRC, the military stopped doing it after WWI, but police did it longer, I think. I'm waiting for a reply from one of the markings experts. We always get comprehensive, up-to-date info!

Geo99 · 06-01-2015, 03:09 AM

Nice pistol but don't pay too much:

Rear toggle axle is an obvious replacement part.

Extractor is an unnumbered replacement part.

Toggle train looks possibly reblued to me, but it could just be the quality of the pictures, which have a lot of glare. The "ERFURT" stamp & crown just look a little shallow to me, and the tiny toggle axle retaining pin has a strangely shaped reflection around it, as if the area has been flattened out a little and reblued/touched up.
This could have been done when converted to Weimar Army pistol.

Two things to check -
1. are there any halos around the barrel SN or diameter marking?
2. are the grips marked inside with matching numbers and Erfurt stamp?

- Geo

ithacaartist · 06-01-2015, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo99

Nice pistol but don't pay too much:

Rear toggle axle is an obvious replacement part.

Extractor is an unnumbered replacement part.

Toggle train looks possibly reblued to me, but it could just be the quality of the pictures, which have a lot of glare. The "ERFURT" stamp & crown just look a little shallow to me, and the tiny toggle axle retaining pin has a strangely shaped reflection around it, as if the area has been flattened out a little and reblued/touched up.
This could have been done when converted to Weimar Army pistol.

Two things to check -
1. are there any halos around the barrel SN or diameter marking?
2. are the grips marked inside with matching numbers and Erfurt stamp?

- Geo

I think the photo series is quite comprehensive, but I'd like to see it taken down. Photos could be lighted better simply by using the old standard of "outdoors on an overcast day". I think I can see the reflection of a fluorescent bulb, which would account for the glare in all the shots, and the washed-out appearance of what remains, or not, of the straw color. I'll bet it looks much better in person!

George, I see the stuff you're talking about, but what I can't shake is my first impression, looking at the pics. There is a hint of a certain softness... Clicking on an individual pic, it seems to show a slight overall frostiness, except for the trigger and safety lever. In the back of my mind, there is the concept of an old refinish which was prepped by media blasting. The evidence for this can be seen with 10X magnification or 1080 resolution close-ups, you'll see individual craters doinked into the surface of the steel from where each tiny bead hit, and this extends all the way down into all the markings and any scratches that were there and not smoothed off sufficiently before blasting. There is a definite tone variation in the rear toggle link in the pic of the top, rear of the gun. It might lend credence to something's being re-done, but since the link is bluer than the rest, maybe the toggle train is original and it's the frame and upper that got the old doll-up. Ron Wood , what say you, sir, to these observations? It's late, and I could be hallucinating!

alanint · 06-01-2015, 10:50 AM

The "1920" should also show raw metal and not bluing, although that may be rust darkening the stamping.

photo-war · 06-01-2015, 11:55 AM

I hope "day light" photos will answer all questions... Thanks for comments again, I am waiting this Luger for close inspection with my camera, but this will happen in few weeks only

Best regards.
Alexander

Don M · 06-02-2015, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

When did they cease applying unit numbers or other like markings on lugers?

Property marking of police weapons was terminated in 1937.

John Sabato · 06-02-2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo99

Nice pistol but don't pay too much:

Rear toggle axle is an obvious replacement part.

Extractor is an unnumbered replacement part.

Toggle train looks possibly reblued to me, but it could just be the quality of the pictures, which have a lot of glare. The "ERFURT" stamp & crown just look a little shallow to me,

I have to opine that I also believe that this gun was refinished at some point in its history, perhaps when the fit of the toggle was repaired with the oversize axle pin. That is not to say that the gun is not genuine, only that repairs changed it from its original state. The bevels on the sides of the forward toggle link where the ERFURT is stamped appear uneven to me and fit with George's comment that the stamping looks shallow.

With all that said, I think this is a fine Luger and the value is dependent on the value placed on the gun in this trade.

Just my $0.02

05-31-2015, 11:01 AM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,051 Thanks: 1,119 Thanked 5,286 Times in 1,728 Posts	Unless it is priced way out of line, buy it. It is an excellent example and looks right as rain. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-31-2015, 01:51 PM	#9
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Alexander For what I can see from the pictures to me it looks quite a fine Luger. Much depends on its price, anyway I think it's a nice find. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

06-01-2015, 03:09 AM	#15
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Nice pistol but don't pay too much: Rear toggle axle is an obvious replacement part. Extractor is an unnumbered replacement part. Toggle train looks possibly reblued to me, but it could just be the quality of the pictures, which have a lot of glare. The "ERFURT" stamp & crown just look a little shallow to me, and the tiny toggle axle retaining pin has a strangely shaped reflection around it, as if the area has been flattened out a little and reblued/touched up. This could have been done when converted to Weimar Army pistol. Two things to check - 1. are there any halos around the barrel SN or diameter marking? 2. are the grips marked inside with matching numbers and Erfurt stamp? - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

05-31-2015, 09:17 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I've not seen those markings on the rear toggle pin. Maybe others can help. Overall it appears to be unmolested. Of course the magazine is a later substitution, common to Weimar guns. So I'm not seeing any glaring red flags, but it all comes down to what value is being assigned the gun in the trade deal. Let's see what the others have to say. dju

05-31-2015, 09:21 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	The rear axel pin appears to be a replacement due to wear. The marking is the size(diameter) variance from standard.

05-31-2015, 10:47 AM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,443 Thanked 4,356 Times in 2,041 Posts	Pretty cool pistol. The S.C. is the Schupo of Cassel, the S.Ka. is the Schupo of Kassel(after spelling of the town name changed!). Very neat transition on one piece. If you decide not to get it, let me know. I have another Luger property number 113, I could start a sub-really speciality collection if I had two!

05-31-2015, 12:06 PM	#7
photo-war User Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 35 Thanks: 24 Thanked 10 Times in 4 Posts	Many thanks for opinions! I appreciate your help with this P.08. Sounds like a very juicy fruit to me, hope to get it in a few weeks. Best regards, Alexander

05-31-2015, 12:06 PM	#8
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 261 Thanks: 1 Thanked 56 Times in 40 Posts	I thought some of the finish was redone, but maybe I'm wrong.

05-31-2015, 08:04 PM	#10
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	It looks pretty good, but the frame rail in front of the sideplate looks odd,like its been grinded.

05-31-2015, 08:35 PM	#11
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 769 Thanks: 2,188 Thanked 656 Times in 350 Posts	Front right frame above the trigger looks like it has no color !? It could be the glare from the lighting, but the edge is irregular (3rd photo) Looks like normal color in Photo #1 and #12. I can't think of any reason to grind that area. Locking bolt looks like it is numbered "67". I love the unit markings and proofs.

05-31-2015, 09:29 PM	#12
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,138 Times in 2,176 Posts	When did they cease applying unit numbers or other like markings on lugers?

05-31-2015, 10:46 PM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I just bought a late WW1 Erfurt with light tool marks along the underside of that frame rail. The takedown lever works very hard and apparently brute force and hardened tools were the solution. dju

06-01-2015, 10:50 AM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	The "1920" should also show raw metal and not bluing, although that may be rust darkening the stamping.

06-01-2015, 11:55 AM	#18
photo-war User Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 35 Thanks: 24 Thanked 10 Times in 4 Posts	I hope "day light" photos will answer all questions... Thanks for comments again, I am waiting this Luger for close inspection with my camera, but this will happen in few weeks only Best regards. Alexander