US Test Eagle Or Not...?

[Pete Ebbink]

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=20953702

Seems to not have the type 2 thumb safety and no number on the right side of the take-down spindle.

But no "Germany" stamps, either...

So is it a US Test piece or not..?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
It is one of those controversial "above the range" pieces. It may or may not be a US Test piece...I think it probably is. It has the correct marking on the left face of the takedown that is typical of these above range examples. Serial number 7108 that was part of the Bannerman sale is numbered on the left face and is the lowest recorded surviving above range number so marked. This leads me to believe that Lugers numbered above 7100 having Test Trial attributes and have this unique style of takedown marking (that was not employed again until 1910-11) are indeed Test Trial Lugers and were part of a later and separate production from the "in range" pieces but still part of the total 1000 purchased.

I suspect it does have the proper Type 2 safety and the checkering just doesn't show up because of the angle and resolution of the picture. Because of its controversial status, the price for this auction item is probably too high.

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

In addition to crosshatch vs. grooves, there is a length difference between Type 2 and Type 3 thumb safeties--the Type 3 raised (grooved) portion is much shorter than the Type 2. #7161 here has the longer raised area, so I agree that it is a poorly-resolved Type 2.

According to my survey, the takedown serial# migrated to the bottom near the end of the Test Eagle guns. I have examined above-the-range 1900AE Luger #7857 which has the serial# stamped on the bottom of the takedown. I may be a little more accepting--less cautious--about the above- and below-the-range test pieces, I think that if it is a 1900 American Eagle in approximately the right range without a GERMANY stamp it is a Test Eagle--the AE and no GERMANY being the only consistent exclusive characteristic throughout the entire variation.

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

Dwight, I have to disagree that the lack of a Germany marking is conclusive evidence of an AE in this range being a test piece. Since many AE lugers were sold in markets other than the US, and the Germany marking was not require on these, one with standard placement of the serials and no Germany marking, could just as well be for non US consumption. TH

[Ron Wood]

Tom,
That is an interesting observation. I have not considered the possibility of an early crested Luger being offered in a market other than the target country. The very earliest 1900 AE Lugers starting around #2000 were marked "GERMANY" and I have never seen an example other than the Test Trial pieces that did not bear this export stamp. Do you have any record of AE Lugers being sold originally in markets other than the US? It is an intriguing concept but really throws the tracking of early AE markings into a cocked hat.

[Edward Tinker]

I can't imagine there being an American Eagle specifically sold in another country for specific sale. There is an example in Jans book of an AE used in the german forces, but I think this was a one-off, either brought back into the country or one (maybe more) taken from a shipment scheduled for america. But, why would another country receive AE guns except from a dealer in america?

Ed

[R.David]

Folks: I recently purchased 1900 AE #6197 from Randy Bessler. It is a very nice gun which meets the criteria for a test gun in every respect. I also have #7577 which meets all of the criteria for an "out of range" test gun. Do any of you know anything about 6197? I understand it was in the collection of a California physician for a considerable period. Also, if the 1000 test guns were not consecutively numbered, there should be guns around in the "range" which were not Test Guns. Do any of you know of any such guns, and do they have any distinguishing features? Lastly, I understand that there was a list, perhaps partial, of the guns sold by the government to Bannermans. Can anyone direct me to that list. Thanks, R.David

[Edward Tinker]

Richard, if you start a new thread you can get specific replies to what you have asked.

This might help, go to the gallery and Ron Wood has a listing of above range and the normal accepted range for Test Lugers. I have only heard that "some" guns might not be consequtive. I believe most were, but Ron, Albert or others have a better grasp of this. Do a search in this part of the forum and use TEST and see how many results you get.

The reprinted copy of Test Lugers by Reese is not very good in the quality department, but excellent in the "interesting" department.

Ed

[Evan Duke]

Pete, I don't know if you are familiar with the Mike Reese book U.S. test trials of the 1900 Luger. In the book Mike lists the serial # range of the test pieces starting at 6099 and running consecutively to 7098.These #s are supported by the receipts from the U.S. Bureau of Accounting. There has been a lot of discussion on these pieces, but if you stay in the serial # range that can definately be accounted for you will be safe. During one of my past discussions with Mike,his opinion was that a production run of AE lugers consisting of more that 1000 was produced in hopes that the U.S. would require more lugers.
When no more were ordered for Government purposes,the remainder of the production were stamped Germany for commercial export purposes and sold world wide to whom ever wanted to buy them.On April 16, 1908 DWM ended the U.S. luger trials.Francis Bannerman Company bought most of the existing trial lugers from the U.S. Government for $10.00 each and sold them in their
Bannerman catalogue. Pete, I owned #6137 it was the earliest test piece known to survive. I still have the book given to me and Signed & numbered #6137 to go with the gun. Chuck

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by R.David:
<strong>Also, if the 1000 test guns were not consecutively numbered, there should be guns around in the "range" which were not Test Guns. Do any of you know of any such guns, and do they have any distinguishing features?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Richard,

Its answers to questins like that which I am hoping to get some answers to with my Commercial serial# survey. As a direct answer, I can tell you that in the data I show a 1900 Commercial #7255 and 1900 Swiss Commercial #7706. These are below the highest above-the-range Test Eagle in the database which is #7990.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

According to Reeseâ??s book, #6100 was the earliest documented surviving example at the time the book was published. Number 6137 was in the collection of Dr. Eric Pappe at that time.

To date, in my database I have a total of 407 serial numbers of Lugers having the characteristics of US Test Trial Lugers that have been observed and recorded by various individuals (I hope to update the tables in the Members Gallery as soon as I can after September). From serial numbers that I have observed and those recorded/provided by Mike Reese, Scott Meadows, Sam Costanzo, Mike Jones, Ron Martin, Dwight Gruber, and many others, the lowest serial number that is a possible Test Trial Luger is #5978. The highest is # 7990, as mentioned by Dwight.

This is difficult data to pin down, since some serial numbers were reported as Commercial Lugers early on, and then later on reported as Test pieces when observed by a more knowledgeable individual.

The common traits among these American Eagle Lugers are the lack of proofs (except for the so called â??flaming bombâ?� proof found on most examples) and no GERMANY export stamp. On the earlier examples, the takedown lever is numbered on the right end of the spindle. The earliest known (to me) example of the transition to the left face of the takedown lever is #7108, which was one of the Lugers included in the Bannerman purchase.

I do not necessarily dispute the serial number range originally published by Mike Reese that he states as coming from Government accounting documents. However, with all the extensive original documentation reproduced by him in his book, this is one important document that is not represented therein. Scott Meadows in his excellent work on US Military pistols also does not present or directly quote such documentation. Without this key documentation, the serial number range of 6099 running consecutively to 7099 lacks substantiation and must be relegated to plausible hearsay. The preponderance of evidence by subsequent authors and examples recorded by we enthusiasts and students of US Luger history strongly tends to extend this range and calls into question whether the US Test pieces were indeed consecutively serial numbered.

Nobody asked my opinion but here it is anywayâ?¦my gut feeling is that they were not consecutive and were delivered in at least two batches, with the possibility of a few precursors/samples in the beginning and perhaps a few late deliveries at the end.

Hang me for a heretic.

[Lugerdoc]

The list of Bannerman purchased US test M1900 lugers was originally published in "US Martial & Collector Arms" by Steve Fuller (MARS POB 26772 San Jose, CA. 95159 in April 1982. It's my understanding that the 6099 to 7098 serial range was all test lugers, but since the manufacturing rejection rate at that time was about 10%, probably 100 additional, out of range M1900AEs were shipped to the US Govt, for a total of 1000, subsequently from the later commerical AE production. The only identifing characterists that one can attribute to this later group is no Germany marking and the TD lever is number on the left side flat. Since this would be an easy part to switch with a correctly numbered DWM military numbered TD lever, I don't think that we can rely on that characteristic. TH

[Ron Wood]

Tom,
You may be right, however numbering the TD on the left in military style didn't come about until 1910. All of the "above range Test" Lugers that I have that level of detailed data on have the TD lever numbered on the left face. That is an odd coincidence to have that many pieces "switched" to correctly numbered DWM military numbered TD levers. It is pretty tough to find a matching numbered part under any circumstance, so I doubt it was routinely done with several above range pieces. Also, I have no record of any "in range" piece with a left side numbered TD. Seems like some of them should have suffered the same fate.

[Evan Duke]

Ron, if you look in the Reese book at the list of known test pieces you will see next to # 6137
the comment seen at gun show. That was when I first exibited the gun at the Maryland Arms Collectors Show in Baltimore at the old 5th Regiment Armory. This gun was fresh out of the wood work. Shattuck later brokeded the gun for me and sold it to Dr. Pappe. Chuck

[Lugerdoc]

Ron, I certainly did not intend to say that all of the "out of range test lugers" had post 1910 military TD levers added to them. Just that the addition of one to a normal AE commerical in that range, although it might be Germany marked, would tend to inflate the numbers, and your study. Unfortunately, I have seen a few M1900AEs within the test range (generally these are mismatched pieces, of which there are many) that do not have the TD numbered on the right side. Tom H.

[Ron Wood]

Evan - Thank you a ton for the history on this piece. I will add the info to my database. I really appreciate little side facts like this. It adds to the background detail that I am always trying to accumulate.

Tom - You are certainly correct. I believe that there is some inflation of numbers through parts replacement and/or misidentification. Unfortunately there is not much opportunity to verify information received, so all I can do for now is trust in the reliability of the individuals reporting numbers and record them.

Again you are right in that there are a lot of in range pieces that are mismatched. I have owned a couple. I too have seen in range pieces that did not have the TD numbered on the right side, but of the ones I have seen the TD has always been a mismatched or "force matched" number. Usually the replaced TD was a commercial type with the number on the bottom.

All of the above range pieces that I have seen or have had reported to me in detail have had matched TD levers numbered on the left face.

Thanks to all for continued input. It makes this part of my hobby very rewarding.

[RockinWR]

Ron,
* Re-reading some old references & ran across the following FWIW:
- AutoMag, Vol. XXX/9-12/97, Pg. 217. Charlie S. reports the acquisition of a 1900 AE, S/N 7119_ with all the characteristics of a US Army Test Luger. Question posed to the membership cause it is "above range". Charlie describes it as "95% all original finish w/ no proofs and no Germany import stamp. However, the Takedown latch is not original so the location of the 2 digit S/N is not available. Internal worker stamps(flaming bomb) are identical to his other 2 US test guns."
* 7 years ago & 2nd hand....the trail may be obscured; but, I thought you'd like to know.
* If you get a hold of him, ask if he has any more conclusions to Imperial worker stamp frame well #'s from his AutoMag research/study request.
Respectfully,
Bob

[Ron Wood]

Bob,
As always, you keep on top of things and help steer me in the right direction.

I wonder whether his assesment that the TD was not original was because it was mismatched or that it was numbered on the left face? I will try to follow up on this info.

Thank you and all the others for continued input to the quest for information and history. Is this a great hobby or what!