Another View

Bob in AZ · 05-06-2002, 12:27 PM

Here's a view of a live round fully chambered. Now look (Johnny Peppers) at just how much that round is exposed in the extractor area. Now you tell me this hole blow was done out of battery. Sorry guys, I shoot way more than I collect. This was a high pressure round.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~bpz357/luger1.jpg

Bob in AZ · 05-06-2002, 12:31 PM

If you look closely you can almost read the head stamp in the breech face. You DON'T get this from a out of battery firing. This round "wrote" its name with pressure!

http://www.public.asu.edu/~bpz357/luger2.jpg

Bob in AZ · 05-06-2002, 12:37 PM

Bernard · 05-06-2002, 04:33 PM

It sure looks like the primer left under great pressure and velocity. Having read all the other posts on this, you got me convinced you had an overloaded round.

Johnny Peppers · 05-06-2002, 04:39 PM

I must have missed your mention of the blown primer in your original post. The blown primer is certainly more of an indication of an overload than the hole blown in the top of the cartridge case. Had the picture of the blown primer been shown in the original post, I would have wholeheartedly agreed that there was an overpressure problem.

The chain of events started by the overpressure load could certainly have caused the breechblock to seperate from the receiver face prematurely, allowing a partially unsupported case to rupture through the extractor groove. It was most probably the gas escaping through the blown primer that did the damage the the extractor and breechface as indicated by the smearing of the cartridge case on the breechface.

Under normal conditions there is approximately 1/32 of unsupported cartridge case ahead of the cartridge case extractor groove in the extractor cut, and no unsupported case ahead of the extractor groove in the feed ramp area.

Orv Reichert · 05-06-2002, 05:03 PM

I sent the photos to a buddy who is a master gunsmith and expert bench-rest shooter.

He agrees with you.....high pressure. Probably a double charge of powder.

You can go thru the rest of the ammo, weighing it..looking for another double charge. If you ind it, then keep it and the rest and contact the seller and tell him about liability, lawsuits, etc.

He should pay for repairs..

Orv Reichert

unspellable · 05-06-2002, 06:49 PM

It would seem to me that if the breech block were far enough back to leave the case unsupported the toggle would not be locked. The gun would then act in blow back mode and violently eject the case with or without the extracter in place. Since the toggle mass is far to small to control the movement in blow back mode I wouild not be at all surprised to see a broken toggle.

So far most of the debate has revolved around case support or lack of it. How about the pistol action? And how do we get an out of battery discharge to begin with? The first possibility I can think of is a broken sear or firing pin. Did this thing go blewy when the trigger was pulled? Or on the reloading stroke?

unspellable

Freischütz · 05-06-2002, 10:43 PM

How far can the P.08 breechblock move before the disconnector works?

05-07-2002, 11:46 AM

I always take "rumors" like this about ammo with ammo! ;>)

But this is not one of those rumors and Ya'll have convinced me that is for sure!

Ed

05-06-2002, 12:27 PM	#1
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Another View Here's a view of a live round fully chambered. Now look (Johnny Peppers) at just how much that round is exposed in the extractor area. Now you tell me this hole blow was done out of battery. Sorry guys, I shoot way more than I collect. This was a high pressure round. http://www.public.asu.edu/~bpz357/luger1.jpg

05-06-2002, 12:31 PM	#2
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Breech face If you look closely you can almost read the head stamp in the breech face. You DON'T get this from a out of battery firing. This round "wrote" its name with pressure! http://www.public.asu.edu/~bpz357/luger2.jpg

05-06-2002, 12:37 PM	#3
Bob in AZ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 66 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: NOW here's a out of battery fired round Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I'm convinced!!! (EOM)

05-06-2002, 04:33 PM	#5
Bernard User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Diego Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Breech face It sure looks like the primer left under great pressure and velocity. Having read all the other posts on this, you got me convinced you had an overloaded round.

05-06-2002, 04:39 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: NOW here's a out of battery fired round I must have missed your mention of the blown primer in your original post. The blown primer is certainly more of an indication of an overload than the hole blown in the top of the cartridge case. Had the picture of the blown primer been shown in the original post, I would have wholeheartedly agreed that there was an overpressure problem. The chain of events started by the overpressure load could certainly have caused the breechblock to seperate from the receiver face prematurely, allowing a partially unsupported case to rupture through the extractor groove. It was most probably the gas escaping through the blown primer that did the damage the the extractor and breechface as indicated by the smearing of the cartridge case on the breechface. Under normal conditions there is approximately 1/32 of unsupported cartridge case ahead of the cartridge case extractor groove in the extractor cut, and no unsupported case ahead of the extractor groove in the feed ramp area.

05-06-2002, 05:03 PM	#7
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I WUZ WRONG.....ORV I sent the photos to a buddy who is a master gunsmith and expert bench-rest shooter. He agrees with you.....high pressure. Probably a double charge of powder. You can go thru the rest of the ammo, weighing it..looking for another double charge. If you ind it, then keep it and the rest and contact the seller and tell him about liability, lawsuits, etc. He should pay for repairs.. Orv Reichert

05-06-2002, 06:49 PM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Re: A thought on this It would seem to me that if the breech block were far enough back to leave the case unsupported the toggle would not be locked. The gun would then act in blow back mode and violently eject the case with or without the extracter in place. Since the toggle mass is far to small to control the movement in blow back mode I wouild not be at all surprised to see a broken toggle. So far most of the debate has revolved around case support or lack of it. How about the pistol action? And how do we get an out of battery discharge to begin with? The first possibility I can think of is a broken sear or firing pin. Did this thing go blewy when the trigger was pulled? Or on the reloading stroke? unspellable

05-06-2002, 10:43 PM	#9
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	Disconnector and Out of Battery How far can the P.08 breechblock move before the disconnector works?

05-07-2002, 11:46 AM	#10
66mustang Guest Posts: n/a	Re: A thought on this I always take "rumors" like this about ammo with ammo! ;>) But this is not one of those rumors and Ya'll have convinced me that is for sure! Ed