Portuguese M2 question - Page 2

LugerVern · 08-08-2014, 09:00 PM

Sn 4460 is referenced in the old Lugers at Random book as being highest SN known.

This is likely where the 5000 produced came from

It is my understanding that roughly 1000 M2's were transferred to the Navy, these guns may or may not have had the M2 crest and may help explain the missing 1000 guns

So you may have a scattering of M2's in the higher ranges but most went to the Navy.

all of this is theory and no one has proven it as of this date but obviously more than one collector has come across this before but no follow through.

Some research is needed:

Interesting.

For those of you tracking this there are more than one variation of M2 crest.

Vern

kurusu · 08-11-2014, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerVern

Sn 4460 is referenced in the old Lugers at Random book as being highest SN known.

This is likely where the 5000 produced came from

It is my understanding that roughly 1000 M2's were transferred to the Navy, these guns may or may not have had the M2 crest and may help explain the missing 1000 gunsSo you may have a scattering of M2's in the higher ranges but most went to the Navy.

all of this is theory and no one has proven it as of this date but obviously more than one collector has come across this before but no follow through.

Some research is needed:

Interesting.

For those of you tracking this there are more than one variation of M2 crest.

Vern

Can you tell me the source of that info? I've never heard of that before and since the Navy had it's own independent contracts, and in a different caliber to boot, I find that transfer rather unlikely. For the later 9mm Army contracts it's quite possible.

On the other hand there's allways the possibility that the Army transferred some weapons to the GNR when it was created, and if so maybe it's where the defacing of some of the pistols was done.

kurusu · 08-11-2014, 11:51 AM

To Douglas Jr.

Your profile doesn't allow private messages. So, Thanks

Douglas Jr. · 08-12-2014, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

To Douglas Jr.

Your profile doesn't allow private messages. So, Thanks

Really?

I will fix that.
But I'm glad you enjoy it.
Douglas

Douglas Jr. · 08-20-2014, 04:22 PM

I found this at ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUGER-P08-BA...item35db10f1a0

It is the barrel - receiver - toggle assembly from a M2 Portuguese Luger.
The barrel bears serial number 3647 (with the circled triangle just below it). The receiver, however, does not match it.

Douglas.

LugerVern · 08-21-2014, 09:13 PM

Thanks Douglas!
Still leaves roughly 1495 missing guns

I know some guns were defaced but honestly I have only seen maybe 20 in the past 10 years.

There is something missing to the Portuguese story.
It is unfortunate that more research has not been done, same goes for the Brazilian contract.

We suffer from lack of interest but much has yet to be discovered-- interesting to me

Show me one early picture of the Portuguese Navy with luger side arms? Any body got one?

Vern

kurusu · 08-22-2014, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerVern

Thanks Douglas!
Still leaves roughly 1495 missing guns

I know some guns were defaced but honestly I have only seen maybe 20 in the past 10 years.
Vern

Mine is defaced # 2703. Make it 21.
And I still have no proved explanation for the defaced pistols both Army and Navy.

kurusu · 08-22-2014, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerVern

Show me one early picture of the Portuguese Navy with luger side arms? Any body got one?

Vern

Best I could get.

Portuguese Navy Batallion leaving for Angola in 1914.

Click image for larger version

Name: Batalhao_Marinha_Partida_1914.jpg
Views: 187
Size: 58.0 KB
ID: 42987

Click image for larger version

Name: Batalhao_Marinha_Alcantara_1914.jpg
Views: 185
Size: 48.5 KB
ID: 42988

Douglas Jr. · 08-22-2014, 09:40 AM

Those pictures made my day. Thank you Mário!

kurusu · 08-22-2014, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

Those pictures made my day. Thank you Mário!

You might as well see it all.

http://www.momentosdehistoria.com/MH_02_10_Marinha.htm

sheepherder · 08-22-2014, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

You might as well see it all.

http://www.momentosdehistoria.com/MH_02_10_Marinha.htm

Interesting reading!

Google translates the battalion as 'marine' but I think it should be better translated as 'maritime'...

What is a 'soliped'???

A camel??? A horse???

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

I found this at ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUGER-P08-BA...item35db10f1a0

It is the barrel - receiver - toggle assembly from a M2 Portuguese Luger.
The barrel bears serial number 3647 (with the circled triangle just below it). The receiver, however, does not match it.

Douglas.

I would not mind having that cannon assembly...

kurusu · 08-22-2014, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Interesting reading!

It's not clear within what context the combatants are referred to as 'Marine Battalion'...Did the Portuguese have an actual 'Marine Corps' similar to their British and American counterparts??? Or were 'soldiers' (or sailors assigned ground assault duty) embarked onboard ship simply referred to as 'Marine'??? Perhaps 'Maritime' might be more accurate???

It's a complicated history, but in 1914 Portugal didn't have an actual Marine Corps, as you said above they had sailors with infantry training who were assigned ground assault duty.

Portugal present Marine Corps (Corpo de Fuzileiros Navais) was created in 1961 but they trace their origins back to 1618, As I said complicated.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpo_de_Fuzileiros

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

And what is a 'soliped'???

A horse???

Yes a horse. A rather elaborate way of saying it.

The normal word is cavalo.

The funny part is... In 1914 Portugal was neutral, we had no part in the Europe battle ground. But was sort of at war with the Germans in Africa. It was only in 1916 that Portugal entered the war. The other funny part. When Portuguese troops went to France they were equiped with British Enfield rifles and .32 Savage pistols.

sheepherder · 08-22-2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

It's a complicated history, but in 1914 we didn't have an actual Marine Corps, as you said above we had sailors with infantry training who were assigned ground assault duty.

I wasn't sure if you were of Portuguese descent or not, but it may interest you to know that the United States Navy has a 'Naval Infantry" detachment, or did back in 1971, when I was in the Marines. (I found it out by accident). I think all Navy ships now carry 'ground assault' trained sailors - "VBSS detachments", whether they have Marines on board or not.

I have a desire to one day visit Portugal, and probably some of Spain as well.

I've already visited Germany.

The 2M Luger cannon on eBay interests me...But I can't decide if it is worth even the starting bid...

LugerVern · 08-23-2014, 11:46 AM

Thank you very much for the pictures!

Ok, holster guys & gals, how many of you would say that is the correct holster for Royal or RP navy? Looks a bit long in the muzzle to me?

Vern

Ron Wood · 08-23-2014, 03:31 PM

I would say that they are M2 not navy Lugers. I know that some of the navy holsters with the attached shoulder strap were made for the 120mm barrel length (I have one) so I do believe that some portion of the 1908 M2 Lugers were transferred to the Navy for marine/ground assault units. Just my opinion, no documented evidence other than photos and holsters.

kurusu · 08-25-2014, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I would say that they are M2 not navy Lugers. I know that some of the navy holsters with the attached shoulder strap were made for the 120mm barrel length (I have one) so I do believe that some portion of the 1908 M2 Lugers were transferred to the Navy for marine/ground assault units. Just my opinion, no documented evidence other than photos and holsters.

That could very well be (the holsters in the pictures do indeed look too long for the navy lugers). But I fail to see the reason why they would equip themselves with army models in a different caliber than their own pistols. It would make sense for logistic reasons since they were operating with the army, but the rifles/carbines that can be seen in the hands of sailors are kropatscheks. The army was using the Mauser-Vergueiro by then. So ammunition compatibility doesn't seem to be the issue.

It's frustrating to say the least.

And I'm getting off my own topic.

And found another picture.

Click image for larger version

Name: Oficiais batalhão da marinha.JPG
Views: 203
Size: 76.5 KB
ID: 43020

kurusu · 08-27-2014, 09:44 AM

There is a possible explanation for the serial numbers above 3500.

In a perfect world there would be 3500 pistols numbered 1 to 3500. But, a number of pistols would likely fail the production tests and others could even have been rejected on arrival, the circled triangle acceptance mark must mean something afterall

, so in order to fullfill a 3500, contract the serial numbers may run higher than 3500, but there must be some gaps in between.

Off course I've not a shred of evidence to support this.

Douglas Jr. · 09-15-2014, 11:17 AM

Dear Mario,

I have a friend in Italy who is writting an article about the Portuguese Lugers. He needs some help regarding vintage pictures and other info. I thought about put him in touch with you since you have been studying these variations.
If you agree, can you send me a message to jrdouglas@uol.com.br for further discussions?

________________________________________________________________________ ______________

EDIT - Found another one, serial number 3543 at cabellas:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/DWM-P...mm/1889836.uts

Saudações fraternas,

Douglas.

08-23-2014, 03:31 PM	#35
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	I would say that they are M2 not navy Lugers. I know that some of the navy holsters with the attached shoulder strap were made for the 120mm barrel length (I have one) so I do believe that some portion of the 1908 M2 Lugers were transferred to the Navy for marine/ground assault units. Just my opinion, no documented evidence other than photos and holsters. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-27-2014, 09:44 AM	#37
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	There is a possible explanation for the serial numbers above 3500. In a perfect world there would be 3500 pistols numbered 1 to 3500. But, a number of pistols would likely fail the production tests and others could even have been rejected on arrival, the circled triangle acceptance mark must mean something afterall , so in order to fullfill a 3500, contract the serial numbers may run higher than 3500, but there must be some gaps in between. Off course I've not a shred of evidence to support this. Last edited by kurusu; 08-27-2014 at 12:59 PM.

08-08-2014, 09:00 PM	#21
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Sn 4460 is referenced in the old Lugers at Random book as being highest SN known. This is likely where the 5000 produced came from It is my understanding that roughly 1000 M2's were transferred to the Navy, these guns may or may not have had the M2 crest and may help explain the missing 1000 guns So you may have a scattering of M2's in the higher ranges but most went to the Navy. all of this is theory and no one has proven it as of this date but obviously more than one collector has come across this before but no follow through. Some research is needed: Interesting. For those of you tracking this there are more than one variation of M2 crest. Vern

08-11-2014, 11:51 AM	#23
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	To Douglas Jr. Your profile doesn't allow private messages. So, Thanks

08-20-2014, 04:22 PM	#25
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	I found this at ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUGER-P08-BA...item35db10f1a0 It is the barrel - receiver - toggle assembly from a M2 Portuguese Luger. The barrel bears serial number 3647 (with the circled triangle just below it). The receiver, however, does not match it. Douglas.

08-21-2014, 09:13 PM	#26
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Thanks Douglas! Still leaves roughly 1495 missing guns I know some guns were defaced but honestly I have only seen maybe 20 in the past 10 years. There is something missing to the Portuguese story. It is unfortunate that more research has not been done, same goes for the Brazilian contract. We suffer from lack of interest but much has yet to be discovered-- interesting to me Show me one early picture of the Portuguese Navy with luger side arms? Any body got one? Vern

08-22-2014, 09:40 AM	#29
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Those pictures made my day. Thank you Mário!

08-23-2014, 11:46 AM	#34
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Thank you very much for the pictures! Ok, holster guys & gals, how many of you would say that is the correct holster for Royal or RP navy? Looks a bit long in the muzzle to me? Vern

09-15-2014, 11:17 AM	#38
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Dear Mario, I have a friend in Italy who is writting an article about the Portuguese Lugers. He needs some help regarding vintage pictures and other info. I thought about put him in touch with you since you have been studying these variations. If you agree, can you send me a message to jrdouglas@uol.com.br for further discussions? ________________________________________________________________________ ______________ EDIT - Found another one, serial number 3543 at cabellas: http://www.cabelas.com/product/DWM-P...mm/1889836.uts Saudações fraternas, Douglas.