Grips

[mystical_tutor]

I'm still digging stuff out. Ran across these and because I know nothing about these I thought I better ask. I think they are all just after war repos but don't know.

[ithacaartist]

Hiya Gary,

The first set of grips are post-war VoPo (Volks Polizei), applied to Lugers that were maintained by East German police.

The second pair, I think, is WWII. IIRC, some Kreighoffs had them.

If original, the holes in their backs should be tapped--repro do not "repro" the internal threads, for obvious reasons, in the molding/copying process, and either set would properly be real Bakelite.

These are certainly desirable, and unless I miss my guess, worth some bucks; more bucks, if my Kreighoff assessment is right.

[alanint]

The second set are too dirty to make a determination as to originality. Are the backs smooth or do they show bubbles, rippling from a mold?

If you could clean them up and repost, it would be easier to tell. A real set of bakelites are worth $200-$250+

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Hiya Gary,

The first set of grips are post-war VoPo (Volks Polizei), applied to Lugers that were maintained by East German police.

The second pair, I think, is WWII. IIRC, some Kreighoffs had them.

If original, the holes in their backs should be tapped--repro do not "repro" the internal threads, for obvious reasons, in the molding/copying process, and either set would properly be real Bakelite.

These are certainly desirable, and unless I miss my guess, worth some bucks; more bucks, if my Kreighoff assessment is right.

The holes are threaded, didn't think to try and get that into the pictures.

So they would be appropriate for my '43 Krieghoff?

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by alanint

The second set are too dirty to make a determination as to originality. Are the backs smooth or do they show bubbles, rippling from a mold?

If you could clean them up and repost, it would be easier to tell. A real set of bakelites are worth $200-$250+

I agree completly about their dirtyness. I didn't (and don't) know what is safe to use on them to clean them up. I dont want to screw them up. I just took a toothbrush to them and it has helped a little but if you can give me guidance on a safe cleaner that would be most helpful.

I don't see anything that looks like bubbles and have no idea what "rippling from a mold" means. The inner surface looks very smooth except on one of the two left grips where the inner surface seems to have tiny dings in it which can be felt when you slide your finger over it but is very hard to photograph (well for me anyway).

I could not find any type of proof mark or number on any of them.

Thanks

Gary

[Ron Wood]

Probably soap and water would help...won't hurt Bakelite. Looks more like Mauser than Krieghoff to me.

[Sergio Natali]

While the first grips should be some old Est Germany VOPO the second set look like Mauser to me.

Sometimes it's difficult to express some sort of reliable opinion from a photograph; these grips look as if they had been dipped in cement, I think that a good scrub with a nail brush and good old soap could do miracles.

[alanint]

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

The holes are threaded, didn't think to try and get that into the pictures.

So they would be appropriate for my '43 Krieghoff?

No, as they are Black. Krieghoff grips were Brown bakelite.

As Ron mentions, start with soap and water. I also use a product known to many gun dealers. It is a silicone product called "Engine Black", found at most Auto or Motorcylce shops. It is a viscous product similar to Armor-All, but without Armor All's tendency to make things dry out and crack.

Spray it on a used Glock and suddenly, you have a brand new Glock!

The stuff is heat resistant and lasts a long time. I use it on all the black surfaces on my motorcycles, including plastic, rubber and painted surfaces. It makes black parts look new again.

[John Sabato]

The second set are either Mauser WW2 manufacture, or reproduction made from them. The cleanup will help tell the difference.

The first set are East German VOPO replacement grips and are high quality well fitting grips in my experience. They are great for shooter grips so you don't crack the original wooden grips.

[mystical_tutor]

A rather interesting project. With a surgical scrub brush and some mild soap they did change a bit. In some unexpected ways.

The left handed grip (far left in the pictures) seems to be different than the pair. Most of the 'crud' on the back was not "on" it but rather a part of it. It almost looks like is a fabric or some such that is fraying. These blotches do not scrub off. With no idea of how repos are made I would vote repo on this one as it seems "fabricated". Note tiny corner frays by the mag release and on the edges. In the pictures with the bottoms and tops of the two left handed grips adjacent it is very apparent they have different qualities or at least one has had a much harder life than the other.

The second interesting thing is that a lot of black came off with the scrubbing. Like all over the bathroom sink and my clothes. The result is a deffinate reddish or brownish hue that is still dark enough that I can not pick it up with my little Coolpix.

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by alanint

I use it on all the black surfaces on my motorcycles,

After careful study of your avitar I have posted something for you in the Off-topic thread.

Hopeing there is more meaning behind that picture than Lugers.

Gary

[alanint]

I know that MP40s and P-38s had both wood chip and fiber reenforcements in their Bakelite grips late in the war. Most wartime bakelite will show a brownish hue under intense light, even the stuff that is supposed to be black.

Does the suspect grip have the threads? Will a grip screw thread easely into all the threaded holes on each grip?

[John Sabato]

Late model reproduction grips are not made of bakelite, but some form of plastic. When you burn a late model reproduction grip, like with the tip of a red hot pin or needle you will cause a hole to be created in what you touched and the unmistakeable aroma of burnt plastic. Try this experiment on a non-structural interior surface...

Extracts from Wikipedia:

Bakelite (/ˈbeɪkəlaɪt/ BAY-kə-lyt), or polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride, is an early plastic. It is a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin, formed from an elimination reaction of phenol with formaldehyde. It was developed by Belgian-born chemist Leo Baekeland in New York in 1907.

By controlling the pressure and temperature applied to phenol and formaldehyde, he produced a hard moldable material and patented in 1907 known as Bakelite. It was the first synthetic thermosetting plastic ever made.

Phenolic sheet is a hard, dense material made by applying heat and pressure to layers of paper or glass cloth impregnated with synthetic resin. These layers of laminations are usually of cellulose paper, cotton fabrics, synthetic yarn fabrics, glass fabrics or unwoven fabrics. When heat and pressure are applied to the layers, a chemical reaction (polymerization) transforms the layers into a high-pressure thermosetting industrial laminated plastic. When rubbed or burnt, Bakelite has a distinctive, acrid, sickly-sweet odor.

In the early 20th century, it was found in myriad applications including saxophone mouthpieces, whistles, cameras, solid-body electric guitars, telephone housings and handsets, early machine guns, pistol grips, and appliance casings. In the pure form it was made into such articles as pipe stems, buttons, etc.



I now believe that all three of these grips are genuine originals, but the one that is deteriorating (on the left in the photo)
appears to have been subjected to some form of solvent that attacked the bakelite composition. The fuzzy appearance is because some of the fiber used to reinforce the material has been exposed.

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I now believe that all three of these grips are genuine originals, but the one that is deteriorating (on the left in the photo)appears to have been subjected to some form of solvent that attacked the bakelite composition. The fuzzy appearance is because some of the fiber used to reinforce the material has been exposed.

Thanks John. I also spent some time on the web trying to figure out what bakelite was, as I realized I really didn't know. Interesting that the French had their own version.

My thinking was that at least the pair were original and that the other one has some kind of problem. As you say it was exposed to something that caused it to deteriate.

Thanks much for your work and follow up. Now I just wish I had a byf/41 to put them on....LOL.

have a great day.

Gary

[mystical_tutor]

Originally Posted by alanint

I know that MP40s and P-38s had both wood chip and fiber reenforcements in their Bakelite grips late in the war. Most wartime bakelite will show a brownish hue under intense light, even the stuff that is supposed to be black.

Does the suspect grip have the threads? Will a grip screw thread easely into all the threaded holes on each grip?

What bothered me about the color was that it scrubbed off (all over the place before I realized it).

I'll try that thing with the grip screws. Are they suposed to fit in there?

Gary

[alanint]

Yes. The threaded holes were meant to hold the grip screws during disassembly so they would not get lost.