I Give Up on the P08 - Page 2

DavidJayUden · 05-20-2013, 07:29 PM

And if you are certain that there is insufficient pressure/recoil, how about experimenting with some +p rounds? I understand that they are universally discouraged for Luger's, but it may help you to find the true root of your problems in just a couple of shots.
Don't forget about sending the recalcitrant P08 to the LugerDoc and have him breath on it. It doesn't cost much and it may spare you some headaches.
Good mag, plenty of oil, tight grip, good ammo. And remember to hold your mouth just right...
dju

Michael Zeleny · 05-20-2013, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Good mag, plenty of oil, tight grip, good ammo. And remember to hold your mouth just right...
dju

I tried that on a 1997 Frankonia refurbished Mauser P08, obtaining the same result with brand new, factory spec springs all around. Maybe my mouth is remiss.

DavidJayUden · 05-21-2013, 12:41 AM

Got'ta be it...
dju

MFC · 05-21-2013, 02:10 AM

Michael,
Try the 'tape test'. Put a piece of freezer tape on the back of the frame, where the rear toggle hits during full recoil. When the main spring and ammo are "in tune", the tape should have a dent in it. If the tape is smashed and cut through, the ammo is too hot or the main spring is too weak. No dent means weak ammo or the main spring is too strong.
There are other things to consider as the other members have suggested but at least you can see how the toggles are reacting.

CJS57 · 05-21-2013, 08:18 AM

My experience in shooting over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military is that some shoot fine every time and some don't. I too gave up on "fixing" a bad one. Just find a "good" one and enjoy.

Michael Zeleny · 05-21-2013, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJS57

My experience in shooting over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military is that some shoot fine every time and some don't. I too gave up on "fixing" a bad one. Just find a "good" one and enjoy.

I have well over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military. The only ones that shoot fine every time are the LP08 Artilleries and 7.65 Para guns, the DWM 1900 and three W+F 06/29 in the standard issue and National Match configurations. My present frustration is with trying to tune a P08 with a Wolff spring kit, where none of the available combinations makes for reliable cycling of WWB and its likes. I will try a box of NATO loads, but they don't make for a long term solution in a Luger.

Sieger · 06-10-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

I have well over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military. The only ones that shoot fine every time are the LP08 Artilleries and 7.65 Para guns, the DWM 1900 and three W+F 06/29 in the standard issue and National Match configurations. My present frustration is with trying to tune a P08 with a Wolff spring kit, where none of the available combinations makes for reliable cycling of WWB and its likes. I will try a box of NATO loads, but they don't make for a long term solution in a Luger.

There is something very wrong here.

Sieger

Curly1 · 05-21-2013, 10:42 AM

Try some of the steel case Tula if you haven't already.

Sieger · 06-10-2013, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curly1

Try some of the steel case Tula if you haven't already.

Ouch!!!

Sieger

Sieger · 06-10-2013, 09:49 PM

Mike;

Get hold of a copy of George W. Wilson's wonderful little book "Luger Shooting". I believe it is also an internet booklet, now, as well. In it, he explains, in detail, the proper functioning of the System Luger.

From my 47 years of 9 mm Luger shooting, here are the causes of the famous "Luger Jam":

Ammo is too strong (usually the case).

Ammo is too weak (usually not the case).

O.A.L. of ammo is too short for proper feeding through the magazine (this is the number one Parabellum performance killer). This spec. is absolutely critical to proper function!!! IF THIS SPEC. IS MATERIALLY OFF, A LUGER CAN NOT BE EXPECTED TO FUNCTION PROPERLY!!! Original German Luger ammo was loaded out, for round nose, to 1.173 inches, (29.8mms), for conical flat point, to 1.142 inches, (29 mms). As you will see, if you measure them, modern commercial 9 mm ammo is loaded much, much too shortly to ever properly fuction in a Luger!

Bullet configuration is incorrect for the magazine interior or feeding ramp. Many modern Hollow Point bullets work perfectly, many just do not.

Magazine spring is too weak (usually not the case).

Magazine lips are bent or have been "modified" in the past.

Recoil spring is either too light or too heavy (usually not the case), or has been "Ba Ba" in the past (usually the case). I might add, that a spring will, indeed, fail, especially after 68 years, minimum, of service. Please do remember that the original DWM contract, with the German government, gave a full three years warranty as to parts and labor, ha!!!

Do you handload? Why do I ask? Because there is NOTHING commercially avalable that is true to the original, German, 9 mm specs.; though 124 grain S&B is pretty close and it is accurate in a Luger (though the O.A.L. of this ammo is still too short for absolutely trustworthy function). The WWB stuff just doesn't cut it for me, as it is not accurate in a Luger, at all, and is also too short.

Here is "the load" for the 4 inch 9mm Parabellum (100% trustworthy in function and deadly accurate):

WW's Commercial Cases (new, not used).
Remington's 1 1/2 Primers.
5.4 grains of Power Pistol Powder (for me, the very best 9 mm powder, to date).
Hornady's 124 grain FMJFP bullets (this is the famous "Airforce Bullet" designed for our military's use).
With this bullet, an O.A.L. of 1.13 inches (28.7 mms) is just perfect. This spec. is absolutely critical to trustworthy function!

With the aforementioned load, I have fired over one thousand rounds, each, thorugh both my 1917 DWM and byf (Mauser) 1941 without a SINGLE JAM OF ANY KIND!! In fact, the 1917 has fired over three thousand rounds without a jam!!

By yourself a couple of new Mec Gar magazines, put back the original recoil spring, unless someone has already "modified" it, (if that is the case, the Wolff 38 pounder should work just fine), handload 100 rounds to the above specs., and go to the range and shoot your 9mm Luger, that WILL now function just like your 7.65 mms do.

Sieger

P.S. The 9 mm Pistole Parabellum was in German military service for over 40 years. Had the 9 mm Pistole Parabellum not been a trustworthy system, I doubt that It would have survived "The Great War", let alone surviving though the Second World War.

Jack Lawman · 06-10-2013, 10:52 PM

Steel vs. Brass cased ammo torture test:
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...mmo/#bookmark0

Not lugers, but a lot of great info obtained through exhaustive testing.

Jack

skeeter4206 · 06-11-2013, 12:12 AM

Talking about O.A.L, it surprised me just how much of a difference in length old 9mm (DWM) versus modern ammo. At least what I have been shooting lately as 9mm aint exactly easy to get what you want anymore. Its almost 2mm shorter than 1917 DWM brand rounds that I have put away. I wonder if thats my issue, as mine jams pretty frequently with that ammo. I'm trhinking its remington, its got R-P on the bottom of the casing.

Sieger · 06-11-2013, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeeter4206

Talking about O.A.L, it surprised me just how much of a difference in length old 9mm (DWM) versus modern ammo. At least what I have been shooting lately as 9mm aint exactly easy to get what you want anymore. Its almost 2mm shorter than 1917 DWM brand rounds that I have put away. I wonder if thats my issue, as mine jams pretty frequently with that ammo. I'm trhinking its remington, its got R-P on the bottom of the casing.

Skeeter:

I bet you can fire a magazine loaded with only 5 round with no problem at all.

Sieger

G.T. · 06-11-2013, 12:33 AM

Hi Rich, Lyman makes a 122 gr. truncated cone cast bullet mold.. it's been around forever and might be one of their all time best sellers... RCBS makes basically the same bullet mold, only it has a slight radius at the metplat ... nice bullets, and they work well...both of them.. look kinda neat also...

.... best to you, til..lat'r...GT

Sieger · 06-11-2013, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Rich, Lyman makes a 122 gr. truncated cone cast bullet mold.. it's been around forever and might be one of their all time best sellers... RCBS makes basically the same bullet mold, only it has a slight radius at the metplat ... nice bullets, and they work well...both of them.. look kinda neat also...

.... best to you, til..lat'r...GT

GT:

The Lyman has much too short of a bearing surface, as compared to the one caliber bearing surface of the RCBS mold. This causes the Lyman bullet to "jump" to the rifling,vs, being right on it. Accuracy is much better for me with the RCBS mold.

Sieger

lugerholsterrepair · 06-16-2013, 08:11 PM

Richard..Yes, You never know. A very close inspection is always first for me. Interesting observation and solution to your problem though!

I have to wonder about springs..I have a Luger that was rusted into a ball..had to be hammered apart. I took out the mainspring and 2 links fell off at a bad rust area. I didn't have any other so I re installed it. Gun is still in the white and shoots without fail.

I have another old beater..I use it for my leather bench fitting pistol. Shoots anything, never jams..a good old warhorse. Not much of a bore left though..

SIGP2101 · 06-17-2013, 03:21 PM

Medium to slow speed burning powders will fix 80% of the problems. The rest is springs, OAL, magazine, ect..
Majority of today's HG ammo uses fast burning powder and that create problems in Lugers.

If you know someone who reload that you can ask to make you a batch in mentioned range to test. It will work with lead and FMJ equally well as long as right powder is utilized. Only then it is possible to trouble shoot P08 in case something else is out of spec.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-17-2013, 03:58 PM

I use red dot shotgun powder for re loading and new ammo I use Winchester White Box.

rhuff · 06-17-2013, 05:11 PM

I also use a lot of Red Dot powder especially in loading 30 Luger ammo. During the "quest for reliability" for this Luger, I tried powders from fast(Bullseye/Red Dot) to medium(Unique/Power Pistol) to slow(Blue Dot) and it wasn't happy with any of them. I varied the bullet profile and type, along with OAL. I also tried Fiocchi and Winchester factory in it with no success.

These old Lugers can really be a challenge, but once you find the "formula", all of the hard work and frustration is worth it......almost.

alvin · 06-19-2013, 07:07 AM

In memory, a new Interarms Mauser that I had in the past had a very strong magazine spring. The tool that coming with the gun was very useful in range to save my fingers. The gun performed very reliably. Later on, a few old Lugers passed though my hands, but none of them had strong magazine springs (due to their age?? at least, not strong comparing with new Interarms). The tool became a decoration item, no need to use it for loading. I did not shoot any of them so I don't know those old magazines works or not.

05-21-2013, 02:10 AM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Michael, Try the 'tape test'. Put a piece of freezer tape on the back of the frame, where the rear toggle hits during full recoil. When the main spring and ammo are "in tune", the tape should have a dent in it. If the tape is smashed and cut through, the ammo is too hot or the main spring is too weak. No dent means weak ammo or the main spring is too strong. There are other things to consider as the other members have suggested but at least you can see how the toggles are reacting. __________________ Mike C.

05-21-2013, 10:42 AM	#8
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,255 Thanks: 126 Thanked 717 Times in 374 Posts	Try some of the steel case Tula if you haven't already. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

06-10-2013, 09:49 PM	#10
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,579 Thanks: 2,154 Thanked 402 Times in 251 Posts	Mike; Get hold of a copy of George W. Wilson's wonderful little book "Luger Shooting". I believe it is also an internet booklet, now, as well. In it, he explains, in detail, the proper functioning of the System Luger. From my 47 years of 9 mm Luger shooting, here are the causes of the famous "Luger Jam": Ammo is too strong (usually the case). Ammo is too weak (usually not the case). O.A.L. of ammo is too short for proper feeding through the magazine (this is the number one Parabellum performance killer). This spec. is absolutely critical to proper function!!! IF THIS SPEC. IS MATERIALLY OFF, A LUGER CAN NOT BE EXPECTED TO FUNCTION PROPERLY!!! Original German Luger ammo was loaded out, for round nose, to 1.173 inches, (29.8mms), for conical flat point, to 1.142 inches, (29 mms). As you will see, if you measure them, modern commercial 9 mm ammo is loaded much, much too shortly to ever properly fuction in a Luger! Bullet configuration is incorrect for the magazine interior or feeding ramp. Many modern Hollow Point bullets work perfectly, many just do not. Magazine spring is too weak (usually not the case). Magazine lips are bent or have been "modified" in the past. Recoil spring is either too light or too heavy (usually not the case), or has been "Ba Ba" in the past (usually the case). I might add, that a spring will, indeed, fail, especially after 68 years, minimum, of service. Please do remember that the original DWM contract, with the German government, gave a full three years warranty as to parts and labor, ha!!! Do you handload? Why do I ask? Because there is NOTHING commercially avalable that is true to the original, German, 9 mm specs.; though 124 grain S&B is pretty close and it is accurate in a Luger (though the O.A.L. of this ammo is still too short for absolutely trustworthy function). The WWB stuff just doesn't cut it for me, as it is not accurate in a Luger, at all, and is also too short. Here is "the load" for the 4 inch 9mm Parabellum (100% trustworthy in function and deadly accurate): WW's Commercial Cases (new, not used). Remington's 1 1/2 Primers. 5.4 grains of Power Pistol Powder (for me, the very best 9 mm powder, to date). Hornady's 124 grain FMJFP bullets (this is the famous "Airforce Bullet" designed for our military's use). With this bullet, an O.A.L. of 1.13 inches (28.7 mms) is just perfect. This spec. is absolutely critical to trustworthy function! With the aforementioned load, I have fired over one thousand rounds, each, thorugh both my 1917 DWM and byf (Mauser) 1941 without a SINGLE JAM OF ANY KIND!! In fact, the 1917 has fired over three thousand rounds without a jam!! By yourself a couple of new Mec Gar magazines, put back the original recoil spring, unless someone has already "modified" it, (if that is the case, the Wolff 38 pounder should work just fine), handload 100 rounds to the above specs., and go to the range and shoot your 9mm Luger, that WILL now function just like your 7.65 mms do. Sieger P.S. The 9 mm Pistole Parabellum was in German military service for over 40 years. Had the 9 mm Pistole Parabellum not been a trustworthy system, I doubt that It would have survived "The Great War", let alone surviving though the Second World War. Last edited by Sieger; 06-23-2013 at 01:37 AM.

06-10-2013, 10:52 PM	#11
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Steel vs. Brass cased ammo torture test: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...mmo/#bookmark0 Not lugers, but a lot of great info obtained through exhaustive testing. Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

06-11-2013, 12:33 AM	#14
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,541 Thanks: 1,342 Thanked 3,742 Times in 1,020 Posts	Rcbs.... Hi Rich, Lyman makes a 122 gr. truncated cone cast bullet mold.. it's been around forever and might be one of their all time best sellers... RCBS makes basically the same bullet mold, only it has a slight radius at the metplat ... nice bullets, and they work well...both of them.. look kinda neat also....... best to you, til..lat'r...GT

05-20-2013, 07:29 PM	#1
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	And if you are certain that there is insufficient pressure/recoil, how about experimenting with some +p rounds? I understand that they are universally discouraged for Luger's, but it may help you to find the true root of your problems in just a couple of shots. Don't forget about sending the recalcitrant P08 to the LugerDoc and have him breath on it. It doesn't cost much and it may spare you some headaches. Good mag, plenty of oil, tight grip, good ammo. And remember to hold your mouth just right... dju

05-21-2013, 12:41 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Got'ta be it... dju

05-21-2013, 08:18 AM	#5
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	My experience in shooting over a dozen original excellent condition Lugers both WWI and WWII commercial and military is that some shoot fine every time and some don't. I too gave up on "fixing" a bad one. Just find a "good" one and enjoy.

06-11-2013, 12:12 AM	#12
skeeter4206 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 448 Thanks: 52 Thanked 88 Times in 49 Posts	Talking about O.A.L, it surprised me just how much of a difference in length old 9mm (DWM) versus modern ammo. At least what I have been shooting lately as 9mm aint exactly easy to get what you want anymore. Its almost 2mm shorter than 1917 DWM brand rounds that I have put away. I wonder if thats my issue, as mine jams pretty frequently with that ammo. I'm trhinking its remington, its got R-P on the bottom of the casing.

06-16-2013, 08:11 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts	Richard..Yes, You never know. A very close inspection is always first for me. Interesting observation and solution to your problem though! I have to wonder about springs..I have a Luger that was rusted into a ball..had to be hammered apart. I took out the mainspring and 2 links fell off at a bad rust area. I didn't have any other so I re installed it. Gun is still in the white and shoots without fail. I have another old beater..I use it for my leather bench fitting pistol. Shoots anything, never jams..a good old warhorse. Not much of a bore left though.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-17-2013, 03:21 PM	#17
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Medium to slow speed burning powders will fix 80% of the problems. The rest is springs, OAL, magazine, ect.. Majority of today's HG ammo uses fast burning powder and that create problems in Lugers. If you know someone who reload that you can ask to make you a batch in mentioned range to test. It will work with lead and FMJ equally well as long as right powder is utilized. Only then it is possible to trouble shoot P08 in case something else is out of spec.

06-17-2013, 03:58 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts	I use red dot shotgun powder for re loading and new ammo I use Winchester White Box. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-17-2013, 05:11 PM	#19
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,315 Thanks: 2,748 Thanked 998 Times in 733 Posts	I also use a lot of Red Dot powder especially in loading 30 Luger ammo. During the "quest for reliability" for this Luger, I tried powders from fast(Bullseye/Red Dot) to medium(Unique/Power Pistol) to slow(Blue Dot) and it wasn't happy with any of them. I varied the bullet profile and type, along with OAL. I also tried Fiocchi and Winchester factory in it with no success. These old Lugers can really be a challenge, but once you find the "formula", all of the hard work and frustration is worth it......almost.

06-19-2013, 07:07 AM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	In memory, a new Interarms Mauser that I had in the past had a very strong magazine spring. The tool that coming with the gun was very useful in range to save my fingers. The gun performed very reliably. Later on, a few old Lugers passed though my hands, but none of them had strong magazine springs (due to their age?? at least, not strong comparing with new Interarms). The tool became a decoration item, no need to use it for loading. I did not shoot any of them so I don't know those old magazines works or not.