unusual RR-Holster-Conversion

[Richard]

May be it's of interest for you:

a holster for the revolver M/83 - made in 1887 by the Artilleriewerkstätten Stuttgart - inside regimental marked:

1. württenberg. Feldartillerie-Regiment 13

the holster has been converted for using the P.08 - probably no official modification:

[lugerholsterrepair]

Richard, This is actually a M79 holster. Perhaps it was converted for the 1883 RR and not the P08?
Either way a beautiful well marked holster.

[Richard]

Hi Jerry,

it's too short for the M/83 - the revolver will not fit - see pics:

[lugerholsterrepair]

Too short..Then it pretty much must be for a Luger as you say! A beautiful holster. If it were still the original 1879 RR it would be a rare and valuable holster. Still a valuable rare piece none the less. Nice to see, thanks for showing it.

[klaus 3338]

Interesting........but not official altered according the well know orders.

[abukafura]

Really a beautiful holster. Thanks for showing it to us.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Yes a very beautiful holster but a sad end to a VERY rare 1879 RR Holster too! It was in and still is in excellent condition.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

Interesting........but not official altered according the well know orders.

Hello Klaus,

nice to meet you here, too

I think I showed the holster to you some time ago; I forgot the details of your analysis - but I remember that that you said that this holster was made by factory in the short form for the M/83 - it has not been shortened later for the M/83 - That's correct or do I make a mistake ?

[klaus 3338]

Moin Richard,
es handelt sich um eine ehemalige Tasche für den langen Reichsrevolver, zu erkennen an den fehlenden Schlaufen für die Patronen und den verstärkten oberen Rand, die dann auf das Maß des kurzen Revolvers oder direkt auf das Maß der P08 geändert wurde.
In Archiv in Freiburg ist aber noch ein Dokument, das das Problem der Identifizierung deiner Tasche betreffen könnte. Aus meiner Erinnerung, da ich es gerade nicht finden kann: Es handelt von Revolvertaschen für die ARTILLERIE, und es muss sich um Taschen für die Feld- Arti. handeln, die während des Krieges geändert werden sollten.
In meiner Sammlung habe ich noch eine Revolvertasche Tasche des ebenfalls Württembergischen 3. Feld- Art. Reg. 49 das erst entsprechend der Preußischen Änderungsanweisung von 1910 für die P08 geändert wurde, dann durch Deckelausschnitt zurück aptiert wurde für den kurzen Revolver um dann letztendlich nochmals durch Schließen des Deckels für die P08 hergerichtet wurde. Auf das bei der ersten Änderung noch vorhandene Schlüsseltäschchen wurde dann verzichtet.
Hintergrund für die einzelnen Aktionen war, dass direkt nach Kriegsbeginn ein großer Mangel an Ordonnanzwaffen herrschte und die ausgemusterten Reichsrevolver wieder gebraucht wurden. Die Feldartillerie, zumindest die fahrende, und um die handelt es sich in diesem Fall, ist eine rückwärtige Formation, auf deren militärischen Verwendung hier nicht weiter eingegangen werden soll, als nötig ist, um zu erklären, dass sie keinem direkten Kontakt mit feindlicher Kavallerie oder Infanterie ausgesetzt werden sollte, zumindest soweit es die militärische Doktrin vorsah. Demzufolge konnte sie zugunsten der bedrängten Infanterie auf ihre 08´en verzichten und wurden, zumindest vorübergehend, mit dem kurzen Revolver ausgestattet. Nun ist nicht geklärt, wann der „Rückumbau“ zur 08 Tasche stattfand, doch ging er anhand der vorliegenden Muster einheitlich vonstatten, da ich mehrere Taschen dieses Musters in Händen hatte.
Es hat mich schon einige Überwindung gekostet, die Nähte der Tasche zu öffnen, um die Passgenauigkeit des Revolvers testen zu können.
Unter diesem Aspekt kann ich mir mit etwas Phantasie vorstellen, dass beim Artillerie Regiment 13, übrigens das Schwesterregiment des A.R.49, eingelagerte Revolvertaschen für den kurzen Revolver oder direkt für die P08 geändert wurden. Amtliche Belege, die genau das unterstützen, gibt es aber leider nicht (mehr).
Gruß Klaus

Moin Richard, it concerns a former pocket for the long empire revolver, to recognize by the missing loops for the patrons and the reinforced upper edge, that was changed then on the measure of the short revolver or directly on the measure of the P08. In archive in Freiburg, another document, that could concern the problem of the identification of your pocket, is however. Out of my memory, there I it just do not find can: It is about revolver pockets for the ARTILLERY, and it must concern pockets for the fields Arti., changed become should that during the war. In my collection, I have another revolver pocket pocket of the also 3rd field of Württemberg type. Reg. 49 that first corresponding to the Prussian change direction by 1910 for the P08 changed became, was arranged became then aptiert by cover cut back for the short revolver around then in the end once again by closing of the cover for the P08. On the key pocket yet available in the first change was renounced then. Background for the single actions was that directly after beginning of the war a large lack of ordinance weapons ruled and the rejected empire revolvers were needed again. The field artillery, at least the going, and around that acts it itself in this case, is a rear formation, on whose military uses here not further gone in will should, when is necessary in order to explain that it should be stopped no direct contact with hostile cavalry or infantry, at least so far it the military doctrine planned. Consequently it could for the benefit of the oppressed infantry on its 08´e renounce and became, equipped at least temporarily, with the short revolver. Now is not clarified when that took place "back reconstruction" to the 08 pocket, but proceeded it on the basis of the existing patterns uniformly because I had several pockets of this pattern in hands. It cost me already some overcoming to open the seams of the pocket, in order to be able to test the passport accuracy of the revolver. Under this aspect, I can imagine with something imagination that in the artillery regiments 13 were changed, by the way the sister regiment of the A.R.49, warehoused revolver pockets for the short revolver or directly for the P08. There are not official records that support exactly that however unfortunately (more). Greeting Klaus

[Richard]

Hello Klaus,

thank you for your answer.

That means, that this special holster has been made originally for the M/83 revolver and is not a shortened holster for the M/79.

[lugerholsterrepair]

That means, that this special holster has been made originally for the M/83 revolver and is not a shortened holster for the M/79.

Richard, Do not be confused, Your holster is without doubt an 1879 RR originally and has been shortened. It is fairly simple.

[Richard]

No, Jerry - I had a further conversation with Klaus -

he showed me the reference in the book from Hans Reckendorf "Taschen und Trageweisen von Faustfeuerwaffen in Preussen..." -

My holster was made for the Feldartillerie in 1887 - they used the RR M/83 since 1885, and their holsters for the M/79 had been shortened -
but holsters made after 1885 for them look like a shortened M/79 holster - but have been originally made for the short M/83 -
so this holster here was another model made for the Reichsrevolver M/83 in the fashion of the revolverholster M/87 (for the revolver M/79)

hope my school english is good enough for explanation

[lugerholsterrepair]

Richard, With respect I still do not agree. Your English is excellent by the way!

Take a look at the bottom of your holster. The dissimilar stitching tells us this holster has been modified from it's original configuration. If the holster had been made for an 1883 it would not have this abnormal different stitching at the toe. You will notice that the original stitching is quite small and the modified stitching is very large at the toe. This holster HAS been modified. No doubt in my mind.

[Richard]

yes, of course, Jerry -

it has been shortened a little bit to fit with the P.08!

Its now too short for the revolver M/83!

[lugerholsterrepair]

Someday I will have to come accross a copy of Taschen und Trageweisen von Faustfeuerwaffen in Preussen..." and get better educated. I have never seen a type 79 design holster made for the 1883. If Klaus says they exist I cannot doubt it. I would like to see one.

The date found as an ink stamp inside your holster seems to support the theory. 1891?

[Don M]

Although this debate may not be over yet, I want to congratulate both Richard and Jerry. This thread is an excellent example of a gentlemanly debate between two knowledgeable individuals. I wish there were more like this.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Someday I will have to come accross a copy of Taschen und Trageweisen von Faustfeuerwaffen in Preussen..." and get better educated. I have never seen a type 79 design holster made for the 1883. If Klaus says they exist I cannot doubt it. I would like to see one.

The date found as an ink stamp inside your holster seems to support the theory. 1891?

Hi Jerry,

yes, it's "1891" - I have copied the chapter about this special holster type out of the book and sent it to you via email (I don't think it's allowed to show it here).

[lugerholsterrepair]

Richard, Thank you very much! Indeed..a Holster I have never seen before! Just goes to show that you can keep learning no matter how much you think you know already. I really do need to get a copy of Taschen und Trageweisen von Faustfeuerwaffen in Preussen..." I think I know a client/Friend who has one..perhaps I will ask to borrow his.
I thank you for sending the pages to me via Email.

Don, Ideally this is what the Forum is all about..learning. Sometimes we are led to it, other times forced into it or we just let it fall onto our heads. I have strong opinions but am often enough wrong I know when to quit!

Richard, I will study the pages you sent...Thanks again.

[Ron Wood]

Jerry,
I agree with you totally...threads like this are really educational! Like you, I was sure the holster was a shortened M79, but based on Klaus' info I checked in Heinrich Harder's excellent book "Der Reichsrevolver und seine Varianten" and sure enough there on page 191 is the holster. It was made for the M83 for the mounted field artillery. I had never seen a M83 holster with the reinforced top and without the cartridge pouch before. You are correct that the holster has been modified/shortened, it was just modified from a different holster than we thought. Neat stuff!

P.S. Therefore, it is not a "sad end to a VERY rare 1879 RR Holster", but unfortunately it is an even sadder end to an even rarer "Revolvertasche für Berittene Feldartillerie". Still a great holster though!

[klaus 3338]

I wrote an article about all the RR- holsters and the altered P08 holsters but do not know how I should take it on the web site. But here are some pics of the original revolver holster for the mounted artillery and a Bavarian P08 holster for the mounted 5. artillery regiment: