Another new guy, new to Lugers

[Reef Donkey]

Got out the jeweler's loupe, if there is anything under the eagle, all that is left is what could be the faint rounded very short curved line-or it could be my imagination. Now on the bottom of the spine of the magazine is what appears to be a "K" with a star-burst appearing symbol in the top of the "K", as shown below.

[Reef Donkey]

Here is another each of the eagle and the K, neither very clear. It appears a tripod will have to be used to get any more detail in the photos.

[Dwight Gruber]

Jerry,

That particular c/G is a stamp which shows up early in the Weimar period. I have seen a couple of examples on the top of the receiver but it shows up mored often on the side, in conjunction with a post-war proof.

--Dwight

[lugerholsterrepair]

Dwight, That particular c/G is a stamp which shows up early in the Weimar period. Must have been a leftover as it's an Imperial stamp. I wonder why they would use an Imperial stamp? Any ideas?

Chip, The Eagle is Simson, not doubt about it and the small curvature..I can see it in the photo..is the top of a 6.
The Star K on the spine is a Police marking.
I would have to say because of the Simson marking on the magazine it's a strong possibility that the pistol was refurbished by Simson.

[Dwight Gruber]

Jerry,

The stamp shows up early and disappears fairly soon--can't give you dates offhand. I would guess--pure speculation--that the proofing officer didn't have a new stamp so he used one that was convenient. The ad hoc nature of the stamp is reinforced by the fact that it was not stamped in a consistent location.

Also, note that the crown differs from the standard WWI inspector marks.

--Dwight

[Reef Donkey]

Jerry, so we are looking at a mid '30s magazine in a pistol most probably re-manufactured by Simpson. I see in the History tab of the site that the Nazis took over the Simpson plant when assuming power. Is there any information available to date that takeover? Is it known if any re-manufactured was done elsewhere with the Simpson machinery after it was nationalized?

[Reef Donkey]

Ok, Wikipedia says the Nazis took over in '34 but that the plant kept working. My attempts at projecting a date by assuming an end date for the Simson plant won't hold water.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Is it known if any re-manufactured was done elsewhere with the Simpson machinery after it was nationalized?

This is a fairly moot point concerning your pistol. The Simson Eagle 6 marking on your magazine leads me in the direction of a refurbishment by Simson. That Eagle 6 stamp would have disappeared when Simson did.

[Edward Tinker]

I would have to look at this in person, but I don't know that I would say it has been reblued after the war / restoration.

I have not looked at the 2nd page, but what I see is a pre-WW1 luger that was bought by someone, most likely an officer and either was still held by him after the war or was now Gov't property (1920) as privately held lugers did not require to be marked. In the late 1930's it received a sear safety and likely was reworked then, the base is not marked the best, if good, then likely a armorer stamping replacement; if by Simson then I would expect an exact stamp.

After the sear safety, it then would have gotten a rear toggle marking and new firing pin (fluted).

Some of that is a guess, but fairly logical.

Ed

[Reef Donkey]

Thanks for weighing in on this, Ed. I started writing this tonight, then got a call from the friend from whom the Luger came.

I believe the family of the bring back vet, that the pistol was in a box in his closet virtually from the end of the war until it got to my friend's gun safe five years ago and that it had no work done on it in that time frame.

My first thought upon seeing the pistol, even though it was reported to have been an officer's pistol during WWII, was that it must have sat out much or all of the war in a drawer or a ceremonial box given the condition it was in.

I typed most of that above, and then got the call. The younger of the vet's sons confirmed to the friend that sold me the gun that dad had taken the it from the body of a dead officer after a firefight. He also said there was a movie made about dad's unit, which he said was called the devil's brigade.

Dad's name was Bennie Buckelew. A short search of the devil's brigade by its proper name as the First Special Service Force lead to the roster at:

http://www.firstspecialserviceforce....SSF_Roster.doc

And there on the roster was Bennie.

[lugerholsterrepair]

The ceremonial box you might be referring to is known as a desk drawer.

[Reef Donkey]

Absolutely.

[Reef Donkey]

Forum,

If you would, please indulge me.

It is my intention to send the following letter to the friend from which I got the subject of this post (he is a hermit where the internet is involved) . It is not my intention to merely reduce those of you that are willing to read this down to proof readers, but I would appreciate insights into necessary editing of any of the following which you may find incorrect, either slightly or glaringly. Certainly, the addition of neglected or forgotten information would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,

Chip


Hey,

After reading the luger blogs, there is a lot of good, readily available, well researched information on these guns, and their history. Information that has been documented, but there also seems to be much misinformation and guessing going around about much to do with them.
Quite a few were made, something like 760,000, before the end of WWI. A real "ramping up" of production for WWII began when Hitler seized the Jewish owned Simson plant (1934), confiscated its machinery and went into war preparation mode. At the same time, Mauser ignored the Treaty of Versailles and restarted its production. The point is, there are a ton of these guns out there from the Imperial, Wiemar and Third Reich eras, in varying conditions and that were made both for military and commercial purposes. This fragments the collectors into various areas of interest and, accordingly, fragments opinions of value.

When you add to the mix that there are less than scrupulous individuals creating bogus pedigrees, building aggregated guns or faking particular models by replacing parts, you see why the collectors that pay big bucks are very hesitant to do so without a very solid history on a given gun, unless that it is a very rare and documented specimen.

Attached is a list where several authors/collectors have gotten together in an attempt to document as many "early" lugers as possible to help in establishing their authenticity. These guys all seem to be gun show fiends and gather much of the information first hand that way and through the blogs postings. The serial number of this pistol (49962) would seem to fall on page 24 of 60.


The things that the members of the Lugerforum blog have stated that they believe about this pistol are:

It was probably manufactured in the 1911-1912 time period.

It is a 9mm Parabellum, according to barrel markings.

It was produced by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) plant, a division of Mauser.

It was a commercial production gun. As officers were required to buy their own side arm, this is consistent with officer ownership.

The 1920 marking is a property marking by the German government, indicating it was potentially government owned at one point.

It was re-manufactured to add a safety sear, a magazine operated "hold-open", a new magazine and other updates. The magazine bottom was serialized to match the rest of the update and was made of aluminum, indicating this was done in the middle '30s. Markings also indicated that it could have been in service as a police side arm at some point.

There is debate as to whether or not it has been re-blued.

According to the blog, whether the pistol is original finish or not could determine whether or not it was worth what I paid you for it; if it had been re-blued, probably not.



All this came before the association with Bennie Buckelew's unit was known or mentioned. That his unit was predecessor to Special Forces/Rangers groups, and with the devil's brigade's accomplishments in WWII. there could be an added prestige attributed to the pistol, if his connection to the pistol can be formally corroborated. There could be additional value provided by written confirmation of the where the pistol was obtained by Mr. Buckelew, depending on the details of the event.

It seems prices for these pistols is all over the map and valuation is unpredictable at best. Some discussion has gone on as to whether the collector market for lugers is growing or shrinking. It has been predicted that with the aging and passing of much of the baby boomer group that have immediate family involvement with family members that brought these guns home, and with a vast variety of "collectible" lugers to choose from, that values may drop in the near future. I don't particularly agree with that reasoning, but I can see where a lot of faking and over-evaluations has apparently gone on. This has caused fakes and irrational pricing and thus may cause excess caution and skepticism to hinder future pricing increases.

The last two paragraphs not withstanding and unless something has been missed by the guys examining the photographs, what I paid for the pistol was probably valued about right given the speculative nature of the condition of the finish. Anything lent to value further will have to be attributable to how the pistol was obtained by Bennie Buckelew and the corresponding verification received from the Buckelew family.

Let me know what you get from them.

Chip

[lugerholsterrepair]

It was produced by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) plant, a division of Mauser.

DWM was not a division of Mauser.

[Reef Donkey]

Thanks, Jerry. I misunderstood when someone referred to DWM as a "daughter" company to Mauser.

[Dwight Gruber]

A pretty clear summary of the discussion. Some nitpicky factual corrections below.

--Dwight


After reading the luger blogs, there is a lot of good, readily available, well researched information on these guns, and their history. Information that has been documented, but there also seems to be much misinformation and guessing going around about much to do with them.

Quite a few were made, something like 760,000, before the end of WWI. A real "ramping up" of production for WWII began when Hitler seized the Jewish owned Simson plant (1934), confiscated its machinery and went into war preparation mode.
Simson was the official repair company during the Weimar (between wars) period, and the only company allowed to produce new P08s for the Reichswehr, the Weimar German army. Simson P08 production ended when the company was nationalized and its manufacturing resources were distributed amongst other arms manufacturers.

At the same time, Mauser ignored the Treaty of Versailles and restarted its production.
P08 production "ramped up" for wartime when Mauser was awarded the army's P08 contract. Army production began in 1935.

The point is, there are a ton of these guns out there from the Imperial, Wiemar and Third Reich eras, in varying conditions and that were made both for military and commercial purposes. This fragments the collectors into various areas of interest and, accordingly, fragments opinions of value.

When you add to the mix that there are less than scrupulous individuals creating bogus pedigrees, building aggregated guns or faking particular models by replacing parts, you see why the collectors that pay big bucks are very hesitant to do so without a very solid history on a given gun, unless that it is a very rare and documented specimen.

Attached is a list where several authors/collectors have gotten together in an attempt to document as many "early" lugers as possible to help in establishing their authenticity.
Is that the Commercial database?

These guys all seem to be gun show fiends and gather much of the information first hand that way and through the blogs postings. The serial number of this pistol (49962) would seem to fall on page 24 of 60.

The things that the members of the Lugerforum blog have stated that they believe about this pistol are:

It was probably manufactured in the 1911-1912 time period.
More likely 1911, possibly late 1910.

It is a 9mm Parabellum, according to barrel markings.

It was produced by the Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM) plant, a division of Mauser. Both Mauser and DWM were independent companies, controlled by a financial conglomerate which also controlled a number of other arms manufacturers. It is not correct to say that either DWM or Mauser was a "division" of the other.

It was a commercial production gun. As officers were required to buy their own side arm, this is consistent with officer ownership.

The 1920 marking is a property marking by the German government, indicating it was potentially government owned at one point. The 1920 property marking was a mandate of the German army and police for a brief period in 1920. This pistol was assuredly in government control at that time,.

It was re built probably better to say that it was repurposed to police use, there are no mixed-parts characteristics of rebuilding.

to add a safety sear sear safety,

a magazine operated "hold-open", Commercial P08s were sometimes manufactured with a hopld-open. From your pictures there is no evidence that a hold-open was added later.

a new magazine and other updates. The magazine bottom was serialized to match the rest of the update the pistol's serial number. The digit 1 indicates that this was the pistol's primary magazine.

and was made of aluminum, indicating this was done in the middle '30s. The production magazine base material was changed to aluminum in 1925. It is most likely that this magazine base was a replacement part manufactured before 1933.

Markings also indicated that it could have been in service as a police side arm at some point. The sear safety is an indication that this pistol was in police service after 1933.

[Reef Donkey]

Thank you Dwight, this is very instructive.

[Reef Donkey]

The next objective is to find a relatively close gun show, with experienced Luger guys scheduled to be there, for an "in-person" inspection of the pistol.

Preferably one where there is no accidental shooting for the media to exploit.

[Reef Donkey]

Dwight,

Missed your question in the text. The answer is yes, I was trying to point him to the Commercial Data Base.