Star of David stamp on luger?

Steve Lempitski · 11-19-2012, 07:01 PM

I havent seen it but a coworker told me his uncle has a luger with a Star of David stamped over the chamber date. His uncle explained he had worked in Israel in the 1960s as an advisor to the military and had been given the gun as a thank you. Supposedly the pistol had been in a warehouse full of similarly stamped captured German weapons that had been given to the fledgling Israeli army by the British upon Israels founding. Has anybody else seen anything like this? Im hoping to see the pistol in person and get some pics.

Thor · 11-19-2012, 07:24 PM

Steve, checking Constanzo's World of Lugers Proof book I do NOT see any with that chamber marking. Still's THIRD REICH LUGERS does report a late era Mauser Banner Commercial Lugers with American Eagle Chamber markings going to the Electric Company of Israel in the late 30s but I do not find any with a Star of David Chamber markings. Beware of fraudulent Lugers unless they can be substaniated. I guess I was thinking of a production gun, but yours would be a limited item and it would be great if you had other documents to verify the story. This kind of reminds me of the Japanese Flower chamber markings.

Edward Tinker · 11-19-2012, 07:52 PM

There were many surplus guns that went to Israel.

I don't remember any Star of David markings, but if it was a presentation piece?

Dick Herman · 11-19-2012, 08:49 PM

Back in the 1960's Navy Arms in New Jersey had some Lugers that had the Star of David property mark stamped on the frame. The mark was similiar size as the proof marks and not large like the AE or other rolled decrorative marks.

If my memory is correct, Buddy Hackett bought an artillery Luger with the Star of David property mark. There were also examples of Mauser K98 rifles with these marks.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-19-2012, 08:52 PM

What appears to be a Star of David appears on the Frames under the grips of some Krieghoff pistols..I saw on one recently on a 1937 HK.

Steve Lempitski · 11-19-2012, 10:35 PM

As I understood when talking to the coworker, his uncle had told him the stamp was put there by the Israelis themselves - they had been given captured German weapons to supply the original settlers of Israel following WW2.

alanint · 11-19-2012, 11:11 PM

Seeing is believing................

Thor · 11-19-2012, 11:35 PM

Jerry, here was a 1937 I found on the forum a while back.

Dick Herman · 11-19-2012, 11:37 PM

The British occupied Palestine. When the British pulled out in 1948 the Isrealis were armed and ready to take control with war surplus weapons. I am sure that they marked their weapons for identification and inventory.

Back in the 1960's, it was strange to see Nazi era markings on Lugers along with the Star of David at Navy Arms.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-20-2012, 12:18 AM

Ted..Exactly the marking I observed on a 1937 HK Luger Bill Baumbeck brought to my house a day or two ago..We tore it down to the last screw and pin to authenticate it as 100% original and matching..it was. I think Bill bought it from Tom Whiteman. Trust but verify? An absolutely gorgeous piece of old World craftsmanship. At the very least a 96% pistol but could easily approach 97 or 98. I took off the grips and was stunned..really beautiful. Even the pin that holds in the extractor was beautifully rounded on the left side..flat on the right and strawed! It slipped right out with just the nudge of a brass wire drift. NO corrosion anywhere on this pistol and the bore was like new. Truly a desk drawer pistol. It was pure pleasure to have handled it.

Thor · 11-20-2012, 12:24 AM

Wow, love the description Jerry! What a thrill to inspect such a treasure!

Nomadr · 11-20-2012, 12:47 AM

I have a C96 with the same "star" marking, and have seen many others (C96) with the same star under the frame. I also recall seeing the same marking on other German pistols.

I do not think they have anything to do with the "Star of David", but rather a rework stamp.

I tried to link a site with a theory about these marks, but unfortunately no longer available?

Bob

lugerholsterrepair · 11-20-2012, 01:05 AM

Bob, No..of course they are no Star of David. I doubt they are a rework either as this pistol never needed any rework.
I don't know what they are but some sort of inspector stamp etc.

Ted..I am sure in your line of work you have inspected many more treasures than I ever will! Even created many..

AR-50A1 · 11-20-2012, 01:46 AM

I had an 1895 DWM Mauser 7mm rifle with the Star of David on the left side of the receiver and I couldn't figure it out I did a little checking and, low and behold, one of the owners of DWM was Jewish and the Star of David was his way of 'branding' the DWM trademark. The Nazis took care of that in the early 1930's.

Jerry mentioned the 'star' stamped on the Krieghoff Luger I recently purchased from Tom Whiteman, owner of Legacy Collectibles (which I HIGHLY recommend as a source of high grade collectible firearms). I totally missed seeing the stamp and I just checked and it is there just as Jerry said it was.

I received my copy of "The Krieghoff Parabellum" by Randall Gibson today and I know have a lot of homework to accomplish.

This is such a great hobby...

Bill Baumbeck
Yuma, AZ

guns3545 · 11-20-2012, 11:03 AM

Over the years it manufactured Lugers for the Luftwaffe, Krieghoff used various marks indicating that the pistol had passed FINAL ACCEPTANCE by Krieghoff and prior to final acceptance by the Luftwaffe inspection.

This was typically on the frame under the grip. During the middle years of manufacture, the mark used was the 6-pointed star and every HK made during this period had the 6-pointed star. Early pistols had no such marks, middle period had the 6-pointed star, later pistols had the numeral 7 or small numbers.

This is opposed to the 5-pointed star indicating a REJECTED pistol, you sometimes see on military to commercial conversions and commercial pistols on the right side of the frame.

Hope this helps.

john

Thor · 11-20-2012, 05:14 PM

Jerry, the problem is I have an old toot's brain, unless I take the time to document something, poof, gonekers.

lugerholsterrepair · 11-20-2012, 05:31 PM

Ted..yes..Even if I do document something it's likely to get lost in some shuffle..Organization is not my strong suit!
I should have started documenting holsters 15 years ago..could publish it by now!

jonnyc · 11-20-2012, 07:29 PM

Well, it is a fact that Lugers came into Israel both pre- and post-statehood, on commercial contracts and as clandestine military surplus. In addition, the star marking that Thor posted looks very much like an IDF property marking, but it does not have a Hebrew letter in the center as most IDF property marks I've seen do have.
Sorry I have nothing definitive to contribute, but this does add a bit to the story. I had an Arty. Luger in my cupboard when I lived in Israel, but I never had the thought to check its markings, or take any picks. I did make a nice wire stock for it, however.

11-19-2012, 07:01 PM	#1
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Star of David stamp on luger? I havent seen it but a coworker told me his uncle has a luger with a Star of David stamped over the chamber date. His uncle explained he had worked in Israel in the 1960s as an advisor to the military and had been given the gun as a thank you. Supposedly the pistol had been in a warehouse full of similarly stamped captured German weapons that had been given to the fledgling Israeli army by the British upon Israels founding. Has anybody else seen anything like this? Im hoping to see the pistol in person and get some pics. __________________ SJL

11-19-2012, 07:24 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Steve, checking Constanzo's World of Lugers Proof book I do NOT see any with that chamber marking. Still's THIRD REICH LUGERS does report a late era Mauser Banner Commercial Lugers with American Eagle Chamber markings going to the Electric Company of Israel in the late 30s but I do not find any with a Star of David Chamber markings. Beware of fraudulent Lugers unless they can be substaniated. I guess I was thinking of a production gun, but yours would be a limited item and it would be great if you had other documents to verify the story. This kind of reminds me of the Japanese Flower chamber markings. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-19-2012, 07:52 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	There were many surplus guns that went to Israel. I don't remember any Star of David markings, but if it was a presentation piece? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-19-2012, 08:52 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	What appears to be a Star of David appears on the Frames under the grips of some Krieghoff pistols..I saw on one recently on a 1937 HK. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-19-2012, 10:35 PM	#6
Steve Lempitski User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Old Cape Cod Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	As I understood when talking to the coworker, his uncle had told him the stamp was put there by the Israelis themselves - they had been given captured German weapons to supply the original settlers of Israel following WW2. __________________ SJL

11-19-2012, 08:49 PM	#4
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	Back in the 1960's Navy Arms in New Jersey had some Lugers that had the Star of David property mark stamped on the frame. The mark was similiar size as the proof marks and not large like the AE or other rolled decrorative marks. If my memory is correct, Buddy Hackett bought an artillery Luger with the Star of David property mark. There were also examples of Mauser K98 rifles with these marks.

11-19-2012, 11:11 PM	#7
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Seeing is believing................

11-19-2012, 11:35 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Jerry, here was a 1937 I found on the forum a while back. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-19-2012, 11:37 PM	#9
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	The British occupied Palestine. When the British pulled out in 1948 the Isrealis were armed and ready to take control with war surplus weapons. I am sure that they marked their weapons for identification and inventory. Back in the 1960's, it was strange to see Nazi era markings on Lugers along with the Star of David at Navy Arms.

11-20-2012, 12:18 AM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ted..Exactly the marking I observed on a 1937 HK Luger Bill Baumbeck brought to my house a day or two ago..We tore it down to the last screw and pin to authenticate it as 100% original and matching..it was. I think Bill bought it from Tom Whiteman. Trust but verify? An absolutely gorgeous piece of old World craftsmanship. At the very least a 96% pistol but could easily approach 97 or 98. I took off the grips and was stunned..really beautiful. Even the pin that holds in the extractor was beautifully rounded on the left side..flat on the right and strawed! It slipped right out with just the nudge of a brass wire drift. NO corrosion anywhere on this pistol and the bore was like new. Truly a desk drawer pistol. It was pure pleasure to have handled it. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-20-2012, 12:24 AM	#11
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Wow, love the description Jerry! What a thrill to inspect such a treasure! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-20-2012, 12:47 AM	#12
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	I have a C96 with the same "star" marking, and have seen many others (C96) with the same star under the frame. I also recall seeing the same marking on other German pistols. I do not think they have anything to do with the "Star of David", but rather a rework stamp. I tried to link a site with a theory about these marks, but unfortunately no longer available? Bob

11-20-2012, 01:05 AM	#13
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Bob, No..of course they are no Star of David. I doubt they are a rework either as this pistol never needed any rework. I don't know what they are but some sort of inspector stamp etc. Ted..I am sure in your line of work you have inspected many more treasures than I ever will! Even created many.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-20-2012, 01:46 AM	#14
AR-50A1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Yuma, AZ Posts: 165 Thanks: 40 Thanked 81 Times in 35 Posts	I had an 1895 DWM Mauser 7mm rifle with the Star of David on the left side of the receiver and I couldn't figure it out I did a little checking and, low and behold, one of the owners of DWM was Jewish and the Star of David was his way of 'branding' the DWM trademark. The Nazis took care of that in the early 1930's. Jerry mentioned the 'star' stamped on the Krieghoff Luger I recently purchased from Tom Whiteman, owner of Legacy Collectibles (which I HIGHLY recommend as a source of high grade collectible firearms). I totally missed seeing the stamp and I just checked and it is there just as Jerry said it was. I received my copy of "The Krieghoff Parabellum" by Randall Gibson today and I know have a lot of homework to accomplish. This is such a great hobby... Bill Baumbeck Yuma, AZ

11-20-2012, 11:03 AM	#15
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 437 Thanks: 655 Thanked 492 Times in 218 Posts	Over the years it manufactured Lugers for the Luftwaffe, Krieghoff used various marks indicating that the pistol had passed FINAL ACCEPTANCE by Krieghoff and prior to final acceptance by the Luftwaffe inspection. This was typically on the frame under the grip. During the middle years of manufacture, the mark used was the 6-pointed star and every HK made during this period had the 6-pointed star. Early pistols had no such marks, middle period had the 6-pointed star, later pistols had the numeral 7 or small numbers. This is opposed to the 5-pointed star indicating a REJECTED pistol, you sometimes see on military to commercial conversions and commercial pistols on the right side of the frame. Hope this helps. john

11-20-2012, 05:14 PM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Jerry, the problem is I have an old toot's brain, unless I take the time to document something, poof, gonekers. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

11-20-2012, 05:31 PM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ted..yes..Even if I do document something it's likely to get lost in some shuffle..Organization is not my strong suit! I should have started documenting holsters 15 years ago..could publish it by now! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

11-20-2012, 07:29 PM	#18
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Well, it is a fact that Lugers came into Israel both pre- and post-statehood, on commercial contracts and as clandestine military surplus. In addition, the star marking that Thor posted looks very much like an IDF property marking, but it does not have a Hebrew letter in the center as most IDF property marks I've seen do have. Sorry I have nothing definitive to contribute, but this does add a bit to the story. I had an Arty. Luger in my cupboard when I lived in Israel, but I never had the thought to check its markings, or take any picks. I did make a nice wire stock for it, however.