Need Help w/ Provenance & Various Other Questions - Page 2

JCreasy · 08-25-2012, 09:15 PM

Hey guys. Thanks for all the pointers. Yes, all the small pieces have the 97 suffix, at least the ones I can see and I agree about taking it apart. I did not know about storing it in the holster and will remove it. Thanks for heads up on that too. I'll get the matching magazine posted tomorrow and see if it can be repaired. Basically, part of the wood on the leading edge has chipped away and so the plug pivots partially out of the magazine. It still holds but would not under usage. I am fairly certain it is authentic. I just cannot figure out the holster issue.

I'll try to get some better shots of the pistol if it would help anyone.

Again, appreciate all your comments. It helps me understand what I have. As stated above, the fact that I got a family heirloom really hit home. I nearly cried when I got it.

Take it easy,

JKC

JCreasy · 08-25-2012, 09:18 PM

I just scrolled back up. The PIC of me holding the magazine is the original one to the pistol. You can faintly make out the 1 (bad lighting). On the side where my thumb is is where the missing part of the wooden plug is and you can see down into the magazine...

See what I am talking about? I'll post better shots tomorrow.

Thanks,

JKC

lugerholsterrepair · 08-25-2012, 09:53 PM

I just cannot figure out the holster issue.

Let me help you out a little..Faking German militaria pretty much started in WW1. The first known famous example was Walt Disney..He was a Soldier and at the end of WW1 he decided to embellish helmets...For entertainment or financial gain..who am I to judge. These helmets are well known in collector circles and very highly sought after and needless to say..horribly expensive.

Faking, embellishing, fabricating, GI graffitti..whatever collectors wish to call it has been around WAY longer than you can imagine. I would guess that Ameriacan GI's had a real propensity for embellishment...
All that being said..Your holster probably falls into the embellishment or GI graffitti catagory. The swastica was likely a popular motif at the time this old warhorse was captured and whoever captured it was severly disapointed that the holster did not have such an imbellishment and he immediately corrected that deficiency. I would guess that the GI who came by this pistol did not know it was WW1 vintage...Even if he might have been aware..might not have cared.

What we do know about it is that it is a WW1 holster. Likely around the same date as your very fine pistol. MOST Luger holsters from this era were dated..Normally the date would be found somwhere near the manufacturer stamp. I didn't see it there..In 1918 some customary practices that were previously iron clad were discarded out of apathy, lack of manpower or overlooked as the war came to a close. Unless the date is inside your holster under the top you may never determine exactly the date of it's manufacture. If you find no date apon close examination in all the likely places I suspect 1918.

For many collectors this symbol defaces the holster..Most like to see very nice WW1 holsters in original condition. If you are confident the provenance holds true..it is likely one of your dear departed relatives did it. In your case..it simply adds to the story you have been told.
Congratulations..you have been given a very nice gift. Were I in the same position I would hunt down the military photo albums of the relatives involved..He may have a photo of him and the luger!

JCreasy · 08-26-2012, 08:05 AM

Jerry,

Thanks for the reply. The holster is date stamped 1917, so I am assuming it could be original to the pistol. There is no tool.

What surprises me is that this pistol was never, at least as far as I know, intended for sale... It was purloined (OK, stolen) as a prize and given to my stepfather's father sometime in the 1950's... Which seemed to me way before folks were creating fake "rarities" to sell for big money.

But you are the expert on this and when someone on the board questioned it, I looked and the Swastika was done (... very carefully) by hand--not stamped. I suppose you are correct that it adds to the story, at least.

I will try to get the original magazine fixed if I can. Also, any ideas of where to find a period correct tool, and how much I'd pay for one?

Thanks, everyone, for the feedback. It has helped a lot.

JKC

lugerholsterrepair · 08-26-2012, 10:52 AM

Which seemed to me way before folks were creating fake "rarities" to sell for big money.

This was not intended to be a rarity to sell but rather a remembrance of where it came from IMO. It's my guess this was captured during WW2 ...

JCreasy · 08-26-2012, 11:11 AM

Skeeter,

Look at my PIC of the DWM mark on the top of the pistol. (The one posted right above me holding the clip between my thumb and forefinger).

See how the numbers 97 have lightened shading around them... Kinda like an oil slick in water? I think that is what they are referring to. I am guessing once you refinish, those go away and the finish is more uniform?

In any event, my next job is to check the bore (any help)? And, trying to figure out how much this was fired... And, get it's condition graded.

This board is informative and fun and I look forward to reading more and participating as appropriate.

JKC

08-25-2012, 09:53 PM	#23
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,769 Thanks: 4,906 Thanked 3,122 Times in 1,433 Posts	I just cannot figure out the holster issue. Let me help you out a little..Faking German militaria pretty much started in WW1. The first known famous example was Walt Disney..He was a Soldier and at the end of WW1 he decided to embellish helmets...For entertainment or financial gain..who am I to judge. These helmets are well known in collector circles and very highly sought after and needless to say..horribly expensive. Faking, embellishing, fabricating, GI graffitti..whatever collectors wish to call it has been around WAY longer than you can imagine. I would guess that Ameriacan GI's had a real propensity for embellishment... All that being said..Your holster probably falls into the embellishment or GI graffitti catagory. The swastica was likely a popular motif at the time this old warhorse was captured and whoever captured it was severly disapointed that the holster did not have such an imbellishment and he immediately corrected that deficiency. I would guess that the GI who came by this pistol did not know it was WW1 vintage...Even if he might have been aware..might not have cared. What we do know about it is that it is a WW1 holster. Likely around the same date as your very fine pistol. MOST Luger holsters from this era were dated..Normally the date would be found somwhere near the manufacturer stamp. I didn't see it there..In 1918 some customary practices that were previously iron clad were discarded out of apathy, lack of manpower or overlooked as the war came to a close. Unless the date is inside your holster under the top you may never determine exactly the date of it's manufacture. If you find no date apon close examination in all the likely places I suspect 1918. For many collectors this symbol defaces the holster..Most like to see very nice WW1 holsters in original condition. If you are confident the provenance holds true..it is likely one of your dear departed relatives did it. In your case..it simply adds to the story you have been told. Congratulations..you have been given a very nice gift. Were I in the same position I would hunt down the military photo albums of the relatives involved..He may have a photo of him and the luger! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-26-2012, 10:52 AM	#25
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,769 Thanks: 4,906 Thanked 3,122 Times in 1,433 Posts	Which seemed to me way before folks were creating fake "rarities" to sell for big money. This was not intended to be a rarity to sell but rather a remembrance of where it came from IMO. It's my guess this was captured during WW2 ... __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-25-2012, 09:15 PM	#21
JCreasy User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hey guys. Thanks for all the pointers. Yes, all the small pieces have the 97 suffix, at least the ones I can see and I agree about taking it apart. I did not know about storing it in the holster and will remove it. Thanks for heads up on that too. I'll get the matching magazine posted tomorrow and see if it can be repaired. Basically, part of the wood on the leading edge has chipped away and so the plug pivots partially out of the magazine. It still holds but would not under usage. I am fairly certain it is authentic. I just cannot figure out the holster issue. I'll try to get some better shots of the pistol if it would help anyone. Again, appreciate all your comments. It helps me understand what I have. As stated above, the fact that I got a family heirloom really hit home. I nearly cried when I got it. Take it easy, JKC

08-25-2012, 09:18 PM	#22
JCreasy User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just scrolled back up. The PIC of me holding the magazine is the original one to the pistol. You can faintly make out the 1 (bad lighting). On the side where my thumb is is where the missing part of the wooden plug is and you can see down into the magazine... See what I am talking about? I'll post better shots tomorrow. Thanks, JKC

08-26-2012, 08:05 AM	#24
JCreasy User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Jerry, Thanks for the reply. The holster is date stamped 1917, so I am assuming it could be original to the pistol. There is no tool. What surprises me is that this pistol was never, at least as far as I know, intended for sale... It was purloined (OK, stolen) as a prize and given to my stepfather's father sometime in the 1950's... Which seemed to me way before folks were creating fake "rarities" to sell for big money. But you are the expert on this and when someone on the board questioned it, I looked and the Swastika was done (... very carefully) by hand--not stamped. I suppose you are correct that it adds to the story, at least. I will try to get the original magazine fixed if I can. Also, any ideas of where to find a period correct tool, and how much I'd pay for one? Thanks, everyone, for the feedback. It has helped a lot. JKC

08-26-2012, 11:11 AM	#26
JCreasy User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Skeeter, Look at my PIC of the DWM mark on the top of the pistol. (The one posted right above me holding the clip between my thumb and forefinger). See how the numbers 97 have lightened shading around them... Kinda like an oil slick in water? I think that is what they are referring to. I am guessing once you refinish, those go away and the finish is more uniform? In any event, my next job is to check the bore (any help)? And, trying to figure out how much this was fired... And, get it's condition graded. This board is informative and fun and I look forward to reading more and participating as appropriate. JKC