I don't really know what it is, but its old

firefree · 08-13-2012, 08:45 PM

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I wish there was a way to research via the serial number

firefree · 08-13-2012, 08:47 PM

Oops posted one twice

firefree · 08-13-2012, 08:48 PM

Yes somebody nickel plated the poor thing

Terry Tiell · 08-13-2012, 09:34 PM

I wonder if Evaprorust would get the nickel finish off so it could be properly blued.

alanint · 08-13-2012, 11:53 PM

Nickel is easely removed by a reverse electro-plating process. It is probably not worth it on this particular pistol, since it has issues, not the least of which is a ground off chamber date.

firefree · 08-14-2012, 01:03 AM

Where is the chamber date located? In my short research I read all do not have them If its the number next to the DWM, its "03." Does not show in the pictures

MFC · 08-14-2012, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firefree

Where is the chamber date located? In my short research I read all do not have them If its the number next to the DWM, its "03." Does not show in the pictures

The date was located above the chamber. Only 1908 military 'first issues' were not dated (1908 or 1909) but they did not have a stock lug as yours does. The stock lug was introduced on PO8's in 1914. As Alanint (Doug) stated, there was a date on it which was removed.
'03' are the last two digits of the serial number. If the gun is all matching, '03' should be located on many various parts.

Patronen · 08-14-2012, 08:01 AM

Looks to me that this luger may have been in Police use at one time. Notice the hole where the sear safety would be attached.

alanint · 08-14-2012, 08:41 AM

Good catch, Dave!

The nickel plating is part of the gun's history. The pistol is heavely buffed and will not look all that much better blued. Since at least parts of the gun saw police use, there is a chance that some parts are mismatched. If the gun shoots, I would leave it as it is.

firefree · 08-14-2012, 01:34 PM

Thank you all, for the comments. I don't know if its matching but it has "03" in many places. The magazine does not match. Its 9694
By holes are you refering to the detent holes below the safety lever that catch the selector in safe or Gesichert?
This is very interesting stuff. These are like 1911's, they all look alike. One must be very sharp to catch the differences.
Is there a way to figure manufacture dates? I've looked thru the technical stuff but do'nt understand much. Seems like the serial numbers were used over and over. And that any letter after the serial may have been polished off.
The gun shoots like a champ. I have been its caretaker for just under 20 years. I clean it, wipe it down and evey now and then I run a magazine or two thru it. The trigger is crisp and its very accurate.
The story it came with would put it as "picked up" in France sometime after D-day. The owner my father in law operated a machine gun on a Higgins boat. He was shortly after reduced in rank and sent to the Pacific where he was captured by the Japanese. The first version I heard had the gun taken from a Japanese officer. I lean toward the France version, one thing I do know, its not a Nambu. I've heard after the invasion there were piles of Lugers that GI's could just pick from. I would have thought there would have been piles of P38's

firefree · 08-14-2012, 01:46 PM

Was looking at the offical serial number. The numbers take up almost all the space. Not much room for a letter.
The bottom of the barrel is also marked with the 1803. On the barrel at its base where it flares to the chamber are the numbers "8 83". There is a scratch that I first thought was a comma between the two 8's. Its the only place I have found a different number on the gun. They are small, the size of the prookmarks.
I can take as many pictures as you nedd, just let me know

Edward Tinker · 08-14-2012, 02:16 PM

The suffix / letter would be under the serial numbrer on the frame.

The 8,83 is correct, like that and is the bore land to land measurement.

It is possible you have a no suffix luge, meaning that it was first 10,000 made that year, so not valuable or anything.

The proof and acceptance markings on the right show it went into military service during WW1, and so the date was definitely removed.

Not sure why anyone would think the if it went into police service it was more likely to be mismatched, that is completely a wrong assumption... Police lugers were taken care of by armories when the local armored could not fix the issue.

Ed

firefree · 08-14-2012, 02:38 PM

I have no issue with value. Just read an article here where a fellow used a niclel plated gun to practice witness marks because its value could not be deminished any more than being nickel plated. And its family history, can't sell family history. Also I don't feel bad shooting it since its not taking away from value. Actually I thought about a re-nickel as where the plating is good it a sweet looking piece.
BUT, if it was made before or during WWI then there may be a safety issue in shooting it. I own a 100 year old Colt .38 in very good shape. I shoot it every now and then too. I don't really enjoy guns I can't shoot.
My issue is how old the gun is. And if the "picked-up" story is plausable. My wife was very close to her Dad and wants to believe he told her the truth. If its a WWI gun then it could have been captured and obtained by her Dad in France. That would make her day.

Norme · 08-14-2012, 04:06 PM

Hi Steve, The Imperial proof marks on the right side of the receiver prove conclusively that this is a WW1, German Army issue gun.
Regards, Norm

FNorm · 08-14-2012, 09:26 PM

I read the proof marks as SES, which would make this late 1914, early 1915.

Patronen · 08-14-2012, 10:26 PM

Steve, This is the "hole" we are talking about on your luger where the sear safety would have been installed.

alanint · 08-14-2012, 10:48 PM

Besides this hole, notice that your sideplate also has a rectangular cutout on the top, (lower left in photo) and visible inside this cutout is a second hole, which the sear safety would drop into once the sideplate is removed. All these modifications indicate police use.

firefree · 08-15-2012, 02:52 AM

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[/IMG]

Ok, these are the sear safety holes and cutout. These prove Police use. I like that I'm a rertired cop. Would this have been German State Police or maybe Military Police? I guess the real question is... Were these weapons put back into Military service for WWII? Somehow I need to get the gun to France by 6 June 1944.
I've learned from Mr. Tinker that these guns had the date ground off before their Military service.
And FNorm has narrowed the production date to 1914-1915
This is amazing information. Thanks so much to you all.
I never would have thought my Colt Army Special is older than the Luger. I learned yesterday its production year was 1913.

CavScoutEurope · 08-15-2012, 06:15 AM

I don't know that the Germans ground off the chamber date. I have a 1916 DWM that still has her chamber date and even has the Russian capture marks on it from when the Soviets captured her during the Second World War. The East Germans didn't ground off the date either. My guess is that whoever nickel plated you Luger ground off the date for whatever reason.

firefree · 08-15-2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CavScoutEurope

I don't know that the Germans ground off the chamber date. I have a 1916 DWM that still has her chamber date and even has the Russian capture marks on it from when the Soviets captured her during the Second World War. The East Germans didn't ground off the date either. My guess is that whoever nickel plated you Luger ground off the date for whatever reason.

I don't know it either. But these folks here know much much more than me.
Now I am wondering if any Police records surrvived.

08-13-2012, 08:45 PM	#1
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I don't really know what it is, but its old [IMG][/IMG] I wish there was a way to research via the serial number __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-13-2012, 08:47 PM	#2
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Oops posted one twice __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-13-2012, 08:48 PM	#3
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes somebody nickel plated the poor thing __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-13-2012, 09:34 PM	#4
Terry Tiell User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: The Fascist State of Maryland Posts: 224 Thanks: 55 Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts	I wonder if Evaprorust would get the nickel finish off so it could be properly blued. __________________ Trying to redo grand dads Luger the best I can.

08-14-2012, 01:03 AM	#6
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Where is the chamber date located? In my short research I read all do not have them If its the number next to the DWM, its "03." Does not show in the pictures __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-13-2012, 11:53 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Nickel is easely removed by a reverse electro-plating process. It is probably not worth it on this particular pistol, since it has issues, not the least of which is a ground off chamber date.

08-14-2012, 08:01 AM	#8
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	Looks to me that this luger may have been in Police use at one time. Notice the hole where the sear safety would be attached. __________________ Dave

08-14-2012, 08:41 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Good catch, Dave! The nickel plating is part of the gun's history. The pistol is heavely buffed and will not look all that much better blued. Since at least parts of the gun saw police use, there is a chance that some parts are mismatched. If the gun shoots, I would leave it as it is.

08-14-2012, 01:34 PM	#10
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you all, for the comments. I don't know if its matching but it has "03" in many places. The magazine does not match. Its 9694 By holes are you refering to the detent holes below the safety lever that catch the selector in safe or Gesichert? This is very interesting stuff. These are like 1911's, they all look alike. One must be very sharp to catch the differences. Is there a way to figure manufacture dates? I've looked thru the technical stuff but do'nt understand much. Seems like the serial numbers were used over and over. And that any letter after the serial may have been polished off. The gun shoots like a champ. I have been its caretaker for just under 20 years. I clean it, wipe it down and evey now and then I run a magazine or two thru it. The trigger is crisp and its very accurate. The story it came with would put it as "picked up" in France sometime after D-day. The owner my father in law operated a machine gun on a Higgins boat. He was shortly after reduced in rank and sent to the Pacific where he was captured by the Japanese. The first version I heard had the gun taken from a Japanese officer. I lean toward the France version, one thing I do know, its not a Nambu. I've heard after the invasion there were piles of Lugers that GI's could just pick from. I would have thought there would have been piles of P38's __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-14-2012, 01:46 PM	#11
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Was looking at the offical serial number. The numbers take up almost all the space. Not much room for a letter. The bottom of the barrel is also marked with the 1803. On the barrel at its base where it flares to the chamber are the numbers "8 83". There is a scratch that I first thought was a comma between the two 8's. Its the only place I have found a different number on the gun. They are small, the size of the prookmarks. I can take as many pictures as you nedd, just let me know __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-14-2012, 02:16 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	The suffix / letter would be under the serial numbrer on the frame. The 8,83 is correct, like that and is the bore land to land measurement. It is possible you have a no suffix luge, meaning that it was first 10,000 made that year, so not valuable or anything. The proof and acceptance markings on the right show it went into military service during WW1, and so the date was definitely removed. Not sure why anyone would think the if it went into police service it was more likely to be mismatched, that is completely a wrong assumption... Police lugers were taken care of by armories when the local armored could not fix the issue. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-14-2012, 02:38 PM	#13
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have no issue with value. Just read an article here where a fellow used a niclel plated gun to practice witness marks because its value could not be deminished any more than being nickel plated. And its family history, can't sell family history. Also I don't feel bad shooting it since its not taking away from value. Actually I thought about a re-nickel as where the plating is good it a sweet looking piece. BUT, if it was made before or during WWI then there may be a safety issue in shooting it. I own a 100 year old Colt .38 in very good shape. I shoot it every now and then too. I don't really enjoy guns I can't shoot. My issue is how old the gun is. And if the "picked-up" story is plausable. My wife was very close to her Dad and wants to believe he told her the truth. If its a WWI gun then it could have been captured and obtained by her Dad in France. That would make her day. __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-14-2012, 04:06 PM	#14
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Steve, The Imperial proof marks on the right side of the receiver prove conclusively that this is a WW1, German Army issue gun. Regards, Norm

08-14-2012, 09:26 PM	#15
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	I read the proof marks as SES, which would make this late 1914, early 1915.

08-14-2012, 10:26 PM	#16
Patronen User Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 312 Thanks: 335 Thanked 93 Times in 70 Posts	Steve, This is the "hole" we are talking about on your luger where the sear safety would have been installed. Attached Images __________________ Dave

08-14-2012, 10:48 PM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Besides this hole, notice that your sideplate also has a rectangular cutout on the top, (lower left in photo) and visible inside this cutout is a second hole, which the sear safety would drop into once the sideplate is removed. All these modifications indicate police use.

08-15-2012, 02:52 AM	#18
firefree User Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 13 Thanks: 4 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[IMG][/IMG] Ok, these are the sear safety holes and cutout. These prove Police use. I like that I'm a rertired cop. Would this have been German State Police or maybe Military Police? I guess the real question is... Were these weapons put back into Military service for WWII? Somehow I need to get the gun to France by 6 June 1944. I've learned from Mr. Tinker that these guns had the date ground off before their Military service. And FNorm has narrowed the production date to 1914-1915 This is amazing information. Thanks so much to you all. I never would have thought my Colt Army Special is older than the Luger. I learned yesterday its production year was 1913. __________________ Its not how many go downrange, but how many connect

08-15-2012, 06:15 AM	#19
CavScoutEurope User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 86 Thanks: 102 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts	I don't know that the Germans ground off the chamber date. I have a 1916 DWM that still has her chamber date and even has the Russian capture marks on it from when the Soviets captured her during the Second World War. The East Germans didn't ground off the date either. My guess is that whoever nickel plated you Luger ground off the date for whatever reason.