How can I get my money back? - Page 2

sheepherder · 08-06-2009, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistol Whipped

You are correct. On the deadline I set ( August 1) Eugene Golubstov (Lugerman) announced to me that my gun was finished and sent me nine photographs as proof. I have since sent him payment and should have my pistol by next week...

Paul and Jim -

Do you two have "before" pics of the pistol you sent him??? I don't think we need them here, but when you gentlemen get your completed pistols back, I (and I'm sure, others here) would be interested in a "before and after" comparison...A separate thread, with pics, maybe pointing out the areas where the most [restorative] work occurred...

junglejim · 08-06-2009, 02:14 PM

Postino, I did not send a luger...."Lugerman" provided the donor gun.

junglejim · 08-06-2009, 03:51 PM

Excuse the quality of the pictures. Another of Lugerman's talents is his ability to take very nice pictures. I lack his expertise.

alvin · 08-06-2009, 09:04 PM

Thanks for the pictures! He did excellent, especially the left side. Restoration like this was not cheap.

thegundude · 08-08-2009, 02:27 AM

He does fine work and takes equally fine pictures. If he spent the time it takes to take those pictures working on guns he might not have such delivery problems.

I've always admired his custom work but Hugh Clark did a much nicer job on the grip of a Baby Luger conversion. In Eugene's grip you can see a very fine silver line where grip is shortened but on Hugh's work it's invisible.

Ice · 08-08-2009, 05:27 AM

That Baby Luger is one fine looking piece and quite the conversation starter, I'll bet. Have you shot it yet?

Charlie

junglejim · 08-08-2009, 02:22 PM

Here is my well used Martz baby luger. Even with worn grip straps....little evidence of frame shortening

alvin · 08-08-2009, 02:41 PM

There are "Papa Nambu" and "Baby Nambu". But it's the first time that I saw a "Papa-Baby Nambu". Here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=136498149

===

It's so uncommon. Since the ad will disappear one day, I will steal the pictures:

sheepherder · 08-08-2009, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

There are "Papa Nambu" and "Baby Nambu". But it's the first time that I saw a "Papa-Baby Nambu".

...Or is it a "Baby Papa-Nambu"???...

Man! I thought some of the stuff I did was weird...

junglejim · 08-13-2009, 01:45 PM

I finally received my finished luger carbine from "lugerman" on Wednesday. Wow, what a struggle after waiting almost a year. It is pretty well done. The donor gun was obviously a nice gun with no pitting. The commercial proofs are sharp, and all letters and numbers are sharp. The donor was a matching number 1920 commercial. Here are a couple of pictures of the gun. The gun does have the carbine type frame extension, but instead of a wedge like the 1902 and 1920 carbines, it has a screw from the bottom like a 1920 commercial Navy carbine (rare). Also, it does not have nor does it need an assist spring. Not up to the quality of a Martz, but very acceptable.

junglejim · 08-13-2009, 01:48 PM

For some reason, the pictures are not true colors of the wood. The wood matches, and is darker than the picture of the gun, and lighter than the picture of the stock. Probably the different background colors.

thegundude · 08-15-2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice

That Baby Luger is one fine looking piece and quite the conversation starter, I'll bet. Have you shot it yet?

Charlie

Hey Charlie,

Yes, I've shot it twice (two full mags) and it shoots very well exhibiting no problems. I love it and everyone who sees it (that has any knowledge of Lugers) is very impressed with the workmanship. Hugh Clark did a wonderful job.

Lugerdoc · 08-21-2009, 11:10 AM

It would seem that LUGERMAN'S major problem is either taking on too many jobs or underestimating their delivery time. I never like to rush an artist. I'd rather let him do it right than do it fast. In the past, I've waited over 2 years for work by Morgan or Martz, but I did learn one thing, don't pay in full, until the job it done. I don't do restorations or any refinishing, but still find that some jobs just take longer than my original estimate, I thank those who have patience and just want the repairs done right. TH

junglejim · 08-21-2009, 08:00 PM

Hi Tom, I see from other posts that you have an excellent reputation. Reputation is in fact what is in question concerning Lugerman.......has nothing to do with patience in a long wait for quality products. I too have a number of Martz (P38 carbine, 1900 Luger carbine, baby Luger, P-38 target pistol), Morgan restoration (Borchardt), Prudhomme engraved piece (1906 Swiss), etc., and never questioned the time it took for quality. What I do question in Lugerman's situation is a promised delivery of 6 weeks. Not knowing the gunsmith, not knowing that he does this part time, not knowing that he was in the midst of a federal audit, I contracted with him. When all the excuses had settled, after numerous outright lies to stall me off, with the threat of lawsuit, on the "eleventh hour" he promised me the gun which I just received. Promised in 6 weeks......delivered after 44 weeks. I wasn't being impatient..I was concerned that I was being scammed. He wanted and received half the money up front and wanted it overnighted to him. That should have sent up red flags, but he has a near perfect record with Gunbroker. He said it normally took a month to complete a luger carbine. Is it no wonder that I became concerned that I had lost my money when many months had passed? Of course, anyone having delivery troubles by the time they wish to leave a negative their time has run out with Gunbroker. No credibility. The point being, not the wait....if he had been up front and indicated it could take a year or more....I wouldn't have been worried, and would have actually been please to receive the gun ahead of the estimated delivery date. At least my confidence in his legitimacy would not have been so shaken. He advertised on Gunbroker (still does), and has increased his delivery time to 5 or six months....still a time frame he cannot fulfill. He needs to stop taking orders so that he can fulfill his commitments or give people a more reasonable completion date. Then stop ignoring emails, and keep customers apprised as to his progress to reestablish his credibility. I am just thankful that I received something for my money. Not near the work of a Martz, but I got my moneys' worth.

Tom, I envy your ability to produce the type of metal work that can become the cornerstone of many collections. I never doubted that a quality product can take many, many hours of tedious work. Having trusted someone with to me a considerable sum of money, and then to be lied to.....that shakes my confidence. When told 6 weeks, and it takes 44 weeks, then that shakes my confidence. He should have been up front somewhere instead of making further promises that he could not keep. It would have been far better if he had said "look Jim, i have had some troubles here at home, and I will not be able to complete my commitment for at least a year or more". At least then I would not have been wondering for almost a year if I was getting anything for my money. Yes, quality takes time........lies take away credibility.

LugerMan.com · 02-09-2012, 04:19 PM

Hi,

My apologies for unpleasant experience.

I am glad you received the product and you are happy with it.

My current turn around time is about 12 month and to avoid this type of situations in the future i am upfront about slow delivery times.

Also a design of my 1920 Carbine conversions have improved and you can visit my site fro revised version of the product.

Thanks.

LugerMan.com · 02-09-2012, 05:28 PM

Here are some pictures of one of the later conversions.
Thanks.

sheepherder · 02-09-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerMan.com

Here are some pictures of one of the later conversions.
Thanks.

[Pics saved to LugerForum.com]

LugerMan -

Thank you for posting the pics!

08-06-2009, 02:14 PM	#22
junglejim User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	donor gun Postino, I did not send a luger...."Lugerman" provided the donor gun.

08-06-2009, 03:51 PM	#23
junglejim User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Alvin, Here are the pictures you requested Excuse the quality of the pictures. Another of Lugerman's talents is his ability to take very nice pictures. I lack his expertise. Attached Thumbnails

08-08-2009, 02:27 AM	#25
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	He does fine work and takes equally fine pictures. If he spent the time it takes to take those pictures working on guns he might not have such delivery problems. I've always admired his custom work but Hugh Clark did a much nicer job on the grip of a Baby Luger conversion. In Eugene's grip you can see a very fine silver line where grip is shortened but on Hugh's work it's invisible. __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-08-2009, 02:22 PM	#27
junglejim User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is Martz baby luger Here is my well used Martz baby luger. Even with worn grip straps....little evidence of frame shortening Attached Thumbnails

08-08-2009, 02:41 PM	#28
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	There are "Papa Nambu" and "Baby Nambu". But it's the first time that I saw a "Papa-Baby Nambu". Here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=136498149 === It's so uncommon. Since the ad will disappear one day, I will steal the pictures: Attached Thumbnails

08-06-2009, 09:04 PM	#24
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Thanks for the pictures! He did excellent, especially the left side. Restoration like this was not cheap.

08-08-2009, 05:27 AM	#26
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	That Baby Luger is one fine looking piece and quite the conversation starter, I'll bet. Have you shot it yet? Charlie

08-13-2009, 01:45 PM	#30
junglejim User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	After more threats, luger carbine finally arrived I finally received my finished luger carbine from "lugerman" on Wednesday. Wow, what a struggle after waiting almost a year. It is pretty well done. The donor gun was obviously a nice gun with no pitting. The commercial proofs are sharp, and all letters and numbers are sharp. The donor was a matching number 1920 commercial. Here are a couple of pictures of the gun. The gun does have the carbine type frame extension, but instead of a wedge like the 1902 and 1920 carbines, it has a screw from the bottom like a 1920 commercial Navy carbine (rare). Also, it does not have nor does it need an assist spring. Not up to the quality of a Martz, but very acceptable. Attached Thumbnails

08-13-2009, 01:48 PM	#31
junglejim User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	luger carbine For some reason, the pictures are not true colors of the wood. The wood matches, and is darker than the picture of the gun, and lighter than the picture of the stock. Probably the different background colors.

08-21-2009, 11:10 AM	#33
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	It would seem that LUGERMAN'S major problem is either taking on too many jobs or underestimating their delivery time. I never like to rush an artist. I'd rather let him do it right than do it fast. In the past, I've waited over 2 years for work by Morgan or Martz, but I did learn one thing, don't pay in full, until the job it done. I don't do restorations or any refinishing, but still find that some jobs just take longer than my original estimate, I thank those who have patience and just want the repairs done right. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-21-2009, 08:00 PM	#34
junglejim User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 42 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lugerman credibility Hi Tom, I see from other posts that you have an excellent reputation. Reputation is in fact what is in question concerning Lugerman.......has nothing to do with patience in a long wait for quality products. I too have a number of Martz (P38 carbine, 1900 Luger carbine, baby Luger, P-38 target pistol), Morgan restoration (Borchardt), Prudhomme engraved piece (1906 Swiss), etc., and never questioned the time it took for quality. What I do question in Lugerman's situation is a promised delivery of 6 weeks. Not knowing the gunsmith, not knowing that he does this part time, not knowing that he was in the midst of a federal audit, I contracted with him. When all the excuses had settled, after numerous outright lies to stall me off, with the threat of lawsuit, on the "eleventh hour" he promised me the gun which I just received. Promised in 6 weeks......delivered after 44 weeks. I wasn't being impatient..I was concerned that I was being scammed. He wanted and received half the money up front and wanted it overnighted to him. That should have sent up red flags, but he has a near perfect record with Gunbroker. He said it normally took a month to complete a luger carbine. Is it no wonder that I became concerned that I had lost my money when many months had passed? Of course, anyone having delivery troubles by the time they wish to leave a negative their time has run out with Gunbroker. No credibility. The point being, not the wait....if he had been up front and indicated it could take a year or more....I wouldn't have been worried, and would have actually been please to receive the gun ahead of the estimated delivery date. At least my confidence in his legitimacy would not have been so shaken. He advertised on Gunbroker (still does), and has increased his delivery time to 5 or six months....still a time frame he cannot fulfill. He needs to stop taking orders so that he can fulfill his commitments or give people a more reasonable completion date. Then stop ignoring emails, and keep customers apprised as to his progress to reestablish his credibility. I am just thankful that I received something for my money. Not near the work of a Martz, but I got my moneys' worth. Tom, I envy your ability to produce the type of metal work that can become the cornerstone of many collections. I never doubted that a quality product can take many, many hours of tedious work. Having trusted someone with to me a considerable sum of money, and then to be lied to.....that shakes my confidence. When told 6 weeks, and it takes 44 weeks, then that shakes my confidence. He should have been up front somewhere instead of making further promises that he could not keep. It would have been far better if he had said "look Jim, i have had some troubles here at home, and I will not be able to complete my commitment for at least a year or more". At least then I would not have been wondering for almost a year if I was getting anything for my money. Yes, quality takes time........lies take away credibility.

02-09-2012, 04:19 PM	#35
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 361 Times in 113 Posts	My appologies Hi, My apologies for unpleasant experience. I am glad you received the product and you are happy with it. My current turn around time is about 12 month and to avoid this type of situations in the future i am upfront about slow delivery times. Also a design of my 1920 Carbine conversions have improved and you can visit my site fro revised version of the product. Thanks.

02-09-2012, 05:28 PM	#36
LugerMan.com User Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 377 Thanks: 91 Thanked 361 Times in 113 Posts	Example of the last carbine version Here are some pictures of one of the later conversions. Thanks.