LUGER 'MYSTERY"

I AM TRYING TO ID A LUGER THAT MY DAD TOOK OFF OF A SURRENEDERED GERMAN OFFICER IN WORLD WAR II. IT HAS A SHORT BARREL 3-4 INCHES. THE SERIAL NO. 2153. IT APPEARS TO SAY MADE IN FRANKFURT ON THE GUN "fnkfurt". THERE IS A HOLSTER WITH IT, IN GOOD CONDITION, MARKED 1936 -- THOUGH I REALIZE THAT COULD BE DIFFERENT FROM THE LUGER, IT HAS A STRAP TO PULL UP THE GUN OUT OF THE HOLSTER AND A LITTLE TOOL.

IT HAS WOOD GRIPS.

HERE'S THE MYSTERY.

IT IS CHROME-PLATED.

I'VE BEEN TOLD GERMAN SOLDIERS DID NOT REPLATE THEM IN CHROME-- AGAINST REGULATIONS. RATHER, GI'S, TAKING THEM BACK TO THE STATES, HAD THEM REPLATED OVERSEAS.

THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT MY DAD SAYS THIS IS EXACTLY HOW THE GUN WAS THAT HE TOOK FROM THE OFFICER. HE DID NOT HAVE IT REPLATED.

WERE THERE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE FOR CERTAIN RANKS,PERHAPS?

IT IS POSSIBLE OF COURSE, THAT THE GERMAN HAD PICKED UP A GUN FROM A DEAD AMERICAN GI OR PRISONER, EARLIER.

ANY THOUGHTS ON IDENTIFYING THE GUN, ITS POTENTIAL VALUE, AND THE MYSTERY WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

[Dok]

As the GIs greatly feared being caught with a Luger on them by the Germans as they believed it meant certain death, it's unlikely this was retaken from a GI. Also the GIs usually had them chrome plated (nickeled) as they were returning home (another reason it is unlikely to have been retaken).


Because Germans were not allowed to modify their issued equipment, as the penelties were severe, it's equally unlikely a German officer would have such a weapon.


While I mean no disrespect to your father, Occum's Razor suggests that all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually correct. It's possible that your father got this Luger from another GI who told him this is how HE got it. And THAT GI fabricated that story. Wouldn't be the first time.


Maybe some of our experts can provide a different twist on this mystery.


Dok

[Dok]

The value of the pistol in it's current state would be between $300-$600 to a shooter only. It has no collector value because it has been nickeled. The holster alone may have equal value now as the Luger, and could be worth $200-$300 depending on condition.


Dok

Where is the Fnkfurt marking located? In addition what type marking is on the Toggel (i,e s/42, DWM etc) and does it have any date on the chamber?

I'll have to get back to you on those additional markings and exactly where they are.

Thanks for sharing your expertise in this forum.

As for Dok's explaination, it is certainly possible that my Dad got it from another GI who lied about he got it.

That's not what he told me, however.

I am just trying to see -- and I agree it sounds illogical -- if there is some other explaination. In all likelihood this is a shooter and little more. The holster is pretty interesting.

But taking this a step further:

Toward the end of the war, were certain regulations ignored or not enforced?

Were certain ranking officers immune from a regulation against having a chrome-plated luger?

Were any of the pre-war commercial Lugers chrome-plated?

I know nothing about Lugers. But the one thing I've learned so far is that there are exceptions to nearly everything.

I'm just exploring that possibility here.

[Orv Reichert]

Nah.........your daddy told you a minor FIB! No big deal...we dads often do! You would not expect him to say he got it from a guy who sold it to him?....no 'pizzazz to that story. There is no way it was original...and, also, no way a German would have plated it..


Thousands were plated by the GI's after the end of the war. It cost a pack of cigarettes at that time!


The Frankfurt is likely 'ERFURT"..? if so, it is a WW-1 gun.

I have talked to several vetran's sons who have told me similar stories (as related to them) and have seen many plated Lugers (both with and without stories). I generally agree that these were done at the request of the GI's rather than the Germans. However, there is NO ONE who can say with absolute certainty that no German Officer had this done during WWII. If my father told me the same story, with all seriousness, I would know that at least one German carried a nickel plated Luger, regardless of what any expert said otherwise!

Most German officers owned their pistols, it is almost a slam dunk that any WWI era Luger used in WWII that was not double dated was in fact the property of the Officer carring it. Also much/most of the nickle plating was done in Paris and Belgium....both occupied by the Germans for over 4 years! While not the norm, I do not find it an impossible stretch to believe that some German Officers may have had their sidearms plated (esp. since they owned them)this would in fact be one of the least bizaar circumventions to regs that can be attributed to many documented cases of non-compliance.


You and only you know your father (of those of us on this board) if you believe he was clear in what he told you, I believe that you should know that you have a Nickle plated Luger that was carried and removed from a German officer at the end of WWII and never question it.

[sidhartha]

Brad It is unlikely that your luger was plated by a german officer. Nor would I say that your father told you a little fib. No one knows what might have happened in the past. Just using a little imagination I would suggest that perhaps a german soldier thought he was above the law (unlikely I know and I probably am starting something)and had it plated. I am sure there are many other possible explainations. The guys on this forum are very helpful and knowledegable. But They don't know everything! We are dealing with a time in history that is surrounded by strict laws and secrects. It seems to me that it is amazing that we have learned as much as we have already. When I first posted on the forum I described a luger that I have with a german youth insignia in the grip and it was dismissed as trench art. Oddly enough there was one that sold on Autionarms at the same time that was just like it. So what is the chances of two luger having the exact same trench art done to them? I guess what I am saying is to not give up and keep searching. Enjoy it as your father has all these years.

Sidhartha:

I like your analysis. That is what I'm doing, continuing to search.

Thanks,

Brad

[Dok]

Yes Brad, by all means do not be put off by the many and varied opinions you may find here, as was so eloquently expressed above - we just don't know! They are guesses at best, because if all were known this board probably wouldn't exist.


Please visit often and join in, there's much to learn here, and you are always welcome.


Dok

I've enjoyed the visit here enormously. Fascinating stuff. One might say, almost, addictive.

[Dwight Gruber]

Dok's comments have crystallized some thoughts which have been in my mind, given me a bit of an epiphany.


A lot is made here differentiating between shooter prices and collector prices. It seems to me that really, there are only Luger prices, and owners/buyers with different interests and intent.


There are people who only own one Luger. They might be casual owners, inheritiors, or they might shoot their guns. Anyone who owns more than one Luger, or who is pursuing the purchase of their second Luger, is a collector.


Its the broad range of interests, and the availability of so many different Lugers, which makes it seem like there is a true differentiation. Some collectors specialize in the most original Lugers available. They evidence little interest in shooting, either by their natural procilvities or by the rarity and value of their Lugers. Other collectors are more interested in the usefulness of their guns, and are interested mostly conceptually in Lugers which should be handled little and shot not at all. There are collectors who are capable of and willing to pay high prices for rare Lugers, and there are collectors who are not willing or able to pay those prices.


We are all blessed by the fact that the range of Lugers matches the range of our interests. With all of the focus on original condition, matching serial numbers, and marking minutia, I'm amused to note the almost "guilty pleasure-ness" in the coy acceptance of nickel-plates and "pimp guns" which has shown up in some quarters here. This is really on the fringe of the thesis, however: there are very expensive Lugers, and people who are not inclined to shoot them; and very much less expensive ones, and people who are.


Although it seems too prosaic to the romanticism of Luger-ness, what we come down to is the commodity value of these guns. Dok's comment which started this train of thought was that the nickel-plated gun under discussion has no value to a collector, but $300-$600 value to a shooter. What is really being said here (if Dok will be so kind as to allow me to reinterpret) is that this gun is worth somewhere between $300 and $600 dollars, but there is a fair number of people who have no interest in owning such a Luger. The difference of focus makes it easier to determine what Lugers are worth, irrespective of the shooter-vs-collector distinction.


It may seem obvious to say that a Luger is worth what someone will pay for it. In my brief experience, however, it seems that the Luger market is a seller's market, and that a Luger is actually worth what someone is willing to take for it. Its also interesting to note that this seems to be an issue in the lower part of the market, that the more rare and expensive Lugers seem to have fairly well established values. Conventionally, it is the legendary "$250 shooter" which suddenly is up to $350 and can't be bought for less than $400, and $600-$900 is suddenly an acceptable low-to-moderate range.


The conclusion I draw from this is that the low-cost range of Lugers are a good investment, that any Luger which is working and not physically deteriorated will drastically increase in value over the next few years, regardless of its provenance. I have also noticed, in descriptions of Lugers for sale in various places on-line, that sellers are beginning to promote "restored" guns as having added value. I think that this is going to become more and more prevalent, and restoring an all-matching and otherwise sound Luger will be a good idea. It will take longer to realize the additional investment, of course, and there will still be a philosophical collector's view that these guns' values are damaged thereby, and collectors who will not be interested in buying them. The fact is, there are thousands of haphazardly refinished Lugers out there whose value will only be enhanced by restoration.


This brings us back around to the subject of "flash" guns. They will always have value, as demonstrated by the fact that there are even people here who are interested in them, and that value will not be at the very lowest end of the spectrum simply because of their relative rarity. And, will all respect due to Thor's artistry, I include his TDJ Lugers in this category. Not by any means that they are cheap or tawdry, quite otherwise: the difference is the respect with which he treats the artifact, the idealization of the Luger which is the intended result. The fact is that it is intended to delight the eye and mind. They will be valuable because they are "cool", they will be more valuable because they are respectful.


This is not where I intended to end up, so let me conclude by simply reiterating that there is only one price range for Lugers, that the distinction between "collector" guns and "shooter" guns is unnecessary because of the wide range of collectors' interests.


And now, a disclaimer:


The foregoing has no intent of insulting anyone or starting an argument. I recognize that it is a very simplified description, this was necessary in order to be clear. The actual range of what I describe is very great; any one of you reading this might feel that it is insufficiently descriptive to describe you or your interests; thats good. Please don't feel offended or slighted, it just goes to show that the subject is very broad.


If you simply write this off as me simply projecting my own values and interests, I won't argue and I won't be offended. I had no intention of writing a personal manifesto, but these are my conclusions.


If I am too new here, and am simply rehashing old ground, then I apologise and beg your indulgence; something within me compelled me to write this.


--Dwight

[Thor]

Dwight the one thing that I might bring up is my clients ASKED for the TDJ and they also had a choice of a realistic restoration job. That even includes our esteemed Leader Dok, his Luger that I did was a TDJ. I do several combinations, though my favorite is DWMs with a rust blued finish with straw parts and my second favorite is the TDJ. All Blue/black pistols, except the Black Widows never did it much for me. ~Thor~

[Dwight Gruber]

As will I ask for one, as well as a restoration, in the fullness of time. I meant no disrespect for you or your work, or for the people who own and prize the guns you do. TDJs are out of the ordinary, and the logic of the thesis demanded my comment. I almost left it out, but ultimately found the observation too interesting, and so it remained. I didn't start there, and I certainly didn't want to end there. I hope you'll forgive me and take my comment about your work in the positive light which was intended.


--Dwight

[Thor]

Dwight, I dont think you fully understand my position. I fully respect your opinion on such topics as restorations, collecting and value. I think such topics are very good to discuss and I agree with you on many of the points you made.

I ONLY wanted to add my 2 pennies in on the TDJs. They are flashy Lugers, no doubt, I even go as far as mirror polish the muzzle crown. No self respecting Luger dude at DWM or Mauser would ever do that, lol. I ENJOYED your post and look forward to many more! Believe me I liked it! ~Thor~

Excatly!


Both positions were very good.


I like Thors Doll Jobs, and I thought Dwights observations were right on and well thought out.


Ed