Yet another Newbie with...

[Magic Jar]

...my apologies up front for having to ask a question.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a collector, per se, but I do enjoy having a few firearms in my possession. I'm an upland game bird hunter for the most part, so my 'collection' consists mainly of shotguns, and those are SXSs with the insertion of two O/Us as 'loaners' for those who prefer a single barrel.

I have only a few handguns, all have unimpeachable provenance owing to the fact that they have come down through family lines. One of those is a 1911 (1918 production) Colt .45 that has all the extras, i.e. magazines, holster, belt, magazine holder, and even a first-aid kit.

I've had a long-time admiration of the Luger and I have an opportunity to acquire one. The price would be in the $1K range. I say 'range' because this acquisition will be a trade that involves an item which I hold to be worth about that much.

I'll try to describe the Luger. I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but I don't have my camera handy at the moment, and I'll need to have an answer about the trade by tomorrow afternoon.

LUGER IDENTIFICATION

SIDE PLATE: -“80” stamped on bottom

FRAME: -“480” stamped above trigger guard
-“GESHIRT’ stamped beneath thumb safety
-(thumb safety has a grooved and raised knob)
-trigger has “80” stamped on left top
-“GERMANY” stamped at rear
-inside above trigger housing “N” inside a circle and a letter “J” at right angle to the “N”.

TOGGLE: -“80” stamped on rear
-“DMW” in stylized script on top
-“N” with crown above on left side of toggle arm

BARREL: -has a “witness” mark that appears to match that on the extension
-has “480” stamped with a cursive “k” beneath (i.e. between the “480” and the “witness” mark
-extension has “A” stamped on front right side next to lobe that slides into frame
-extension has “N” with crown above stamped on front left

SAFETY: -has “80” stamped on it

The gun has a holster (Ehrhardt 1937), no tool, but two extra magazines, none of which has a number matching those on the gun, and judging by some of the photos I've seen on this forum it would be considered in excellent condition. It has the wear you would expect, but no graffiti, tears, or other wounds.

The gun, itself, is in good shape. A little holster wear on the tip of the muzzle. The grips look original, i.e. not new, a bit worn and smoothed in places, and have no "million-dollar" chips that I read about.

I have spent several hours today searching for information on this forum and, quite honestly, am overwhelmed by depth and breadth of what's contained here.

My question is a general one. Am I making a mistake swapping an item that I "think" has a value of around (yet another variable) US$1,000.00 for this gun?

If you've taken the time to read this, many thanks. If you offer me your opinion and advice, thank you in advance.

Should I make this swap, I'll become an avid member of this forum and will endeavor to learn as much as I can about the Luger.

James

[lugerholsterrepair]

James, Welcome to the Forum. You are describing a commercial model Luger. It is likely .30 Luger. Or is it 9MM?
2 extra magazines plus the one with the pistol?

2 magazines..$200-250 if originals

Holster..$250+ or -

Pistol..$600 so you are well within market values.

Photo's would help.

[sheepherder]

A three digit commercial??? And a cursive 'k' under the 480 on barrel, but not on frame???

$1000 for a 30 cal??? I dunno...I don't ever figure on getting any money back for magazines, holsters, cleaning rods, magazine loaders, lanyards, oil bottles, swabs...etc...

Seems a bit high to me...but I'm not into "rigs"... :\

[lugerholsterrepair]

Rich..-“N” with crown above on left side of toggle arm I believe it's whats known as an Alphabet commercial. It has no date on the chamber and with the -“N” with crown above on left side of toggle arm...what could it be but a commercial?

Regardless of how you look at it the extras are worth considering in a deal. Lets say you buy the rig and sell off the extras..you end up with a $600 pistol.

I don't ever figure on getting any money back for magazines, holsters, cleaning rods, magazine loaders, lanyards, oil bottles, swabs...etc...WHY? You throw it all away? I always look for extras ..often they are what make a deal for me. Stuff I can seperate out and get some money back.

[Magic Jar]

Thank you both for your responses.

I'm embarrassed to say, especially since I consider myself somewhat knowledgeable about firearms, I don't know the caliber. There's nothing in the way of stamping to give me a clue. I own a .30 cal and inserted a shell (empty, of course) into the chamber (Did I mention that I field-stripped the gun?) and while it fit I realized that I still didn't know anything.

The stamping on one magazine is "P08", but as I understand it this could be either caliber.

I don't know if the extra magazines are original or not. My wife collects bakelite. She tested two of them and determined that the thumbholds (correct nomenclature?) are bakelite. The third looks to be some type of aluminum or pot-metal. It's the one that's stamped with a four-digit number and also has a "2" above that number and some barely visible (I have a jeweler's loupe.) emblem that I can't associate with any of the emblems I find in the "Technical Information" part of this web site.

I don't know the meaning of Postino's word "rigs" but I can guess. What does the 'k' signify. I found it under one of the links on this site, but there was no indication to me what the suffices meant.

"Alphabet Commercial", now that's a new term for me to look up...but I will. After all, I used to tell my students that research is 90% (or was it 95%?) of the fun in any task.

Lugerholsterrepair mentioned that photos would help. True enough, but I'm reluctant to post photos of a gun I don't own yet. Posting the above symbols and numbers is bad enough, but I'm a little wary of inserting pix.

Be that as it may, should I make this trade, I'll certainly post photos with "enthusiasm and alacrity", as Howard Cosell used to say to Dandy Don.

Lugerholsterrepair, I'm judging from the number of your posts that I've read that you would consider this holster to be 'excellent' or better (if there is such a category). When I first looked at it I thought there was a repair to the top, but then I saw that it was the stitching for the tool pouch inside. The tool is not there, but the pouch is fine. There's absolutely no sign of wear and tear. There's just a bit of rub-off above and to the left of the anchor end of the closing strap. It looks like a scrape, or a rub.

Thank you again for your replies, both of you, because I also understand Postino's cautionary response.

I know from reading replies to other posters that, in the end, the decision to acquire lies with me. If I'm comfortable with the trade, then I'll live with it.

I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks again.

James

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I always look for extras ..often they are what make a deal for me. Stuff I can seperate out and get some money back.

I've never been able to sell off any 'extras' and make money/break even...Except once: I sold the hardtop off my '58 Vette to a police officer for $100 and bought a ragtop assembly for $75...I had to rent a drill and buy a wood bit and some bolts to install the ragtop...so I came out even...

(This was in a supermarket parking lot in Oceanside CA back in 1970)

James -

A 'rig' is the pistol, holster, maybe a belt, cleaning rod, etc...

I'm basing my response on just the pistol, and it being 30 cal - I agree with Jerry: Crown over "N" is a commercial proof, used on 30 cal Lugers primarily...(or so I'm told)...

Stick a #2 pencil eraser first in the muzzle...if it goes in all the way and is a sloppy fit, it's 9mm; if it sticks at the metal band, it's 30 cal...

[Norme]

Hi James, I would figure your rig pretty much as Jerry does, but of course without photos we could both be wrong. You can tell if this gun is 9mm by inserting a common pencil in the barrel, if it goes in it's 9mm. Regards, Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

James, My figures are predicated on a pistol with original blue..A reblue is a deal killer for me.
The stamping on one magazine is "P08", but as I understand it this could be either caliber. Yes..any magazine will accept either cartridge.

If both of your bakalite mags are black, have a close look at the sides. There should be an eagle 37 or P08 near the bottom.

Holster must be original to be worth any money...

A rig is a complete issue pistol, holster, mags..tool etc.

Make your trade contingent on a review here when you get the rig, post photo's and some kind soul will tell you all about it!

[Magic Jar]

Thanks to all for the clarification of terms ('rig', etc.) and for the 'caliber test'. The pencil stuck at the metal ring. (Is this something like the old "rabbit died" test??)...so guess it's a 7.65.

I've spent that past two hours just reading the first 300+ posts on different threads using the search string "alphabet commercial". I learned a helluva lot. Even found a couple of guns that are pretty close to the one I'm considering.

Sorry to see that one of those threads attracted a troll who caused a bit of trouble. Hope this thread doesn't. I suspect that any thread with a 'newbie' in its title can do that.

In any case, one thing I've learned is that regardless of what decision I make about this gun, I'll return to this forum. That's partly owing to the caliber (no pun intended) of information and the decorum under which this information is imparted. Partly also owing to the fact that if I don't acquire this particular Luger, I will, indeed, acquire one. I read somewhere this afternoon a poster welcoming a newbie to the "addiction". I can see that.

I'll check with the current owner and obtain permission to post photos.

Thanks again,
James

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Magic Jar

...so guess it's a 7.65

Some of us prefer the 7.65mm Luger cartridge, which is what the pistol was originally designed around...but it seems to be generally accepted that the sales value is ~$150/$200 less than a comparable 9mm...

There seems to be more interest in the 9mm/military Lugers, too...

Several online merchants sell the 30 Luger ammunition...and even Wal-Mart sells the 9mm...

[wlyon]

James
I agree with Jerry. Again there are many variables. If the finish is original, if the holster is an original.
, same with the mags. On the plus side even a mismatched reblued shooter class sells for $600 or so. At $1000 it seems ,with the extras to be a pretty good deal. Providing you want a 30.
I like Jerry's thought to buy it but final pending on opinions from the forum.With pictures of everything the forum members can tell you a good deal.
We were all in your situation with our first lugers, so know how you feel. Good luck and welcome to the forum.
Be aware it is impossible to only have one luger. So consider the first one as part of the learning process . Bill

[sheepherder]

I disagree with Jerry, Norme, and Wylon...They are basing their beliefs on Luger collectors, which is pretty much who they know on this (and other) Forums...and maybe a big show they frequent...And it is conditional on there being someone who wants that magazine/holster and is willing to pay your price *right now*...

Trying to sell magazines, holsters, accessories locally is a much more difficult task...Especially if you are trying to recoup money needed somewhere else...I know my local gunshops wouldn't want them, and CraigsList, Swap Sheet, etc isn't a reliable source for sales...eBay is always a good bet, but again, there has to be someone looking for that particular item...

IF you recoup your 'investment', you may have to wait some time for it...As everyone else may have all the magazines/holsters they presently need, and don't want to buy one for stock...

So I don't plan on selling any accouterments to try to justify my purchases...It is what it is, a $1000 handgun...If you can live with that, then you are good to go...

(That is my $.02 worth and worth every penny)

[Magic Jar]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

...If both of your bakalite mags are black, have a close look at the sides. There should be an eagle 37 or P08 near the bottom...

The black mag has an "eagle 37" with "fxo" above it. The "P 08" is stamped on the same side of the mag but across from the "eagle 37".

The black mag "tested" bakelite. The white one didn't, but she says it sure "looks and feels" like bakelite. (Yeah, don't ask. I'm not the one that collects that stuff.)

James

[wlyon]

Rich
I will take all the extras I can get in any deal. I think selling luger accessories is probably somewhat based on geographical area. I am sure in Western New York the demand is not very high. Here in Montana if a good luger holster, mag etc is for sale you need to be quick or it's gone. Especially if selling at a reasonable price. I have sold many holsters and mags. Some on Ebay some at local gunshows and several on this Forum. It may not be immediate money but I have never had a problem selling it. We all have different collecting standards. Whatever works for you is ok. Bill

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by wlyon

Rich
I will take all the extras I can get in any deal. I think selling luger accessories is probably somewhat based on geographical area. I am sure in Western New York the demand is not very high.

Bill, the demand is not very high for any accessories, no matter what the gun. *Every* gunshop (and my basement as well) here has boxes of magazines, holsters, grips, buttplates, reloading dies and odds & ends of parts...That sit for years, until someone paws through them looking for something...M16/AR-15 parts are the most common...

I have stuff in my boxes that I bought over the last 40 years just because I didn't want to leave a gun show without buying *something*...Even if it was only a $12 FN Type D BAR buttstock complete...

I should put some of it in the For Sale Forum...Maybe I'll get rich...

[Magic Jar]

Originally Posted by postino

...Maybe I'll get rich...

I thought you were "Rich". (Hey, I'm too new here to be trying the comedian role. )

On a more important note, this exchange about the value of accessories is interesting to me. I've attended a few gun shows (CA, AZ, ID, NV, and MT) over the years and it's been my observation that purveyors try to make the 'buyer' think these items are scarce as hens' teeth. Not being a collector of any note, I have to rely on sifting through the chaff to get to the grain.

I've contacted the owner of this Luger and we're meeting this afternoon to discuss 'details' of the potential exchange. Right now I'm thinking that making the deal contingent upon clarifying a few unknowns via this forum is what I'll do. One thing in my favor is that I have bulletproof (another non-pun) provenance on the item I'm trading, dating back to its origin, subsequent owners, and value, so I think I'm in a good position to ask for the contingency.

Thanks for the help on all this. I hope someday soon I'll be able to make a worthwhile contribution to forum discussions.

James

[Magic Jar]

Okay, let's see if I can make this happen. I've received permission from the current owner to post these photos. I do lack talent when it comes to photography and equipment, so I hope these handheld, available-light shots are helpful.

James

[sheepherder]

There is a letter under the frame serial...I'm not that versed to tell what it is...

Pics aren't focused enough to be certain...but looks buffed & reblued...

[Conny]

After comparing other luger "rears" and toggles, maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks buffed and reblued.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Conny

After comparing other luger "rears" and toggles, maybe my eyes are playing tricks but it looks buffed and reblued.

I like the way you think, Duane...