Iraq Borchardt capture?

TennBill2 · 02-19-2011, 11:14 AM

I have spent many hours searching the net for info on the Borchardt, to help me with my building. Came across some pics on the web, HK94.com, of one supposedly captured by 'Coalition Forces'. Anyone have any info surrounding this? Curious if it was actually a shooter. Looks like it would make a great story! Bill

Lugerdoc · 02-19-2011, 12:21 PM

With the wide variety of weapons in use in Iraq, it doesn't surprise me that a Borchard turned up (probably being shot with 7.62 Tok ammo). I once owned a Borchard, that was found hanging on a restaurant wall in Thailand, during the Vietnam era. Tom

Ron Wood · 02-19-2011, 01:25 PM

Photos of the Borchardt that was found in Iraq was posted on one of the forums a while back, but I don't recall when or where it was posted. It was in less than pristine condition but was still functional. I don't know if it was successfully removed from country or if it ended up destroyed (I doubt it...GIs are pretty resourceful!

)

Edward Tinker · 02-19-2011, 02:19 PM

I remember seeing it too.

not long ago, I saw a youtube that they had a container of interesting, older weapons sent back to the USA several years ago for military museums.

ed

TennBill2 · 02-19-2011, 02:22 PM

It was on the HK94.com site. What's been driving me nuts is trying to figure the construction, mounting, etc. of the extractor! There was a pic showing it( the Iraq model), which appears straight compared to the early luger extractor. I wanted to build something to shoot! Obviously, whoever found it had some idea what it was. I almost bought one 15 yrs ago or so from Shattuck. Unfortunately, lost 2 grand 'cause I couldn;t come up with the balance.......another $2000! So, it was out to the shop..

sheepherder · 02-19-2011, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TennBill2

I have spent many hours searching the net for info on the Borchardt, to help me with my building.

Hugo Borchardt's patent is a good place to start. His drawings are more machine drawings than illustrations; almost like he took his "blueprints" and made the patent application from them...

Vlim · 02-19-2011, 06:13 PM

The original thread appeared on a subgun forum, but that link (I found it) is dead now.

Luckily the photos are still there:

TennBill2 · 02-19-2011, 06:17 PM

Unfortunately the drawings don't show any detail on the breechblock/extractor that I can tell anything from. I have copies of the instructions, plates of the parts, etc., but, the extractor is so small can't make anything out. I've even been looking for 'parts', thinking an early luger extractor would give me an idea. The one missing link.....! The breechblock also has 2 holes on each side of the extractor......have no clue what these were for. Wish someone would write the book on the Borchardt! Bill

TennBill2 · 02-19-2011, 06:22 PM

Vlim, those same group of pics show the best close-up of the extractor. I know it's rectangular but don't know if it's pinned from the side, mortised partially in from the front...or what!

sheepherder · 02-19-2011, 08:27 PM

1890 Borchardt C_93 self-loading pistol - Firepower Forums

Ron Wood · 02-19-2011, 08:39 PM

Bill,
The Borchardt extractor is made just like the 1900 Luger extractor...one piece spring steel that inserts into the hinge part of the breechblock and is retained by a lug on the bottom. It is just a bit longer than the Luger extractor.

TennBill2 · 02-19-2011, 09:32 PM

Like this?

Ron Wood · 02-19-2011, 09:44 PM

Yep.

sheepherder · 02-23-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

With the wide variety of weapons in use in Iraq, it doesn't surprise me that a Borchard turned up (probably being shot with 7.62 Tok ammo).

Very insightful observation; that had never occurred to me...According to Donnelly's Handloader's Manual Of Cartridge Conversions (which draws heavily from Cartridges Of The World), the 7.65mm Borchardt, 7.63mm Mauser, and 7.65mm Tokarev cartridges all share the same dimensions. Finding a pistol that could shoot Soviet ammunition (presumably available from captured stores) in that region is probably not too surprising.

I don't think that the Tokarev ammunition would be very beneficial to the pistol...but it was probably an attention-getter for the shooter!!!

Death-Ace · 05-17-2011, 10:52 PM

I saw a thread about a byf 42 "Black Widow" P.08 in pristine shape a soldier found in the back of a car. Supposed a car bomb was in, but this was a surprise! If someone could find it, maybe it'd offer a possibility of the Borchardt's fate. That P.08 I believe is in the regiment's museum or "historical company" now. Can't say for certain.

Edward Tinker · 05-18-2011, 03:25 AM

Uh, don't remember the Borchardt 'what happened to it', but although there are soldiers that are interested in history, most are not.

You can do a search on youtube and find this.

But one unit and another unit may do totally different things with guns they find, most being destroyed.

Ed

02-19-2011, 11:14 AM	#1
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Iraq Borchardt capture? I have spent many hours searching the net for info on the Borchardt, to help me with my building. Came across some pics on the web, HK94.com, of one supposedly captured by 'Coalition Forces'. Anyone have any info surrounding this? Curious if it was actually a shooter. Looks like it would make a great story! Bill

02-19-2011, 12:21 PM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	With the wide variety of weapons in use in Iraq, it doesn't surprise me that a Borchard turned up (probably being shot with 7.62 Tok ammo). I once owned a Borchard, that was found hanging on a restaurant wall in Thailand, during the Vietnam era. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

02-19-2011, 01:25 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Photos of the Borchardt that was found in Iraq was posted on one of the forums a while back, but I don't recall when or where it was posted. It was in less than pristine condition but was still functional. I don't know if it was successfully removed from country or if it ended up destroyed (I doubt it...GIs are pretty resourceful!) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-19-2011, 02:19 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	I remember seeing it too. not long ago, I saw a youtube that they had a container of interesting, older weapons sent back to the USA several years ago for military museums. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-19-2011, 02:22 PM	#5
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Borchardt It was on the HK94.com site. What's been driving me nuts is trying to figure the construction, mounting, etc. of the extractor! There was a pic showing it( the Iraq model), which appears straight compared to the early luger extractor. I wanted to build something to shoot! Obviously, whoever found it had some idea what it was. I almost bought one 15 yrs ago or so from Shattuck. Unfortunately, lost 2 grand 'cause I couldn;t come up with the balance.......another $2000! So, it was out to the shop.. Attached Images

02-19-2011, 06:13 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The original thread appeared on a subgun forum, but that link (I found it) is dead now. Luckily the photos are still there:

02-19-2011, 06:17 PM	#8
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Borchardt patent Unfortunately the drawings don't show any detail on the breechblock/extractor that I can tell anything from. I have copies of the instructions, plates of the parts, etc., but, the extractor is so small can't make anything out. I've even been looking for 'parts', thinking an early luger extractor would give me an idea. The one missing link.....! The breechblock also has 2 holes on each side of the extractor......have no clue what these were for. Wish someone would write the book on the Borchardt! Bill

02-19-2011, 06:22 PM	#9
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	Vlim, those same group of pics show the best close-up of the extractor. I know it's rectangular but don't know if it's pinned from the side, mortised partially in from the front...or what!

02-19-2011, 08:27 PM	#10
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	1890 Borchardt C_93 self-loading pistol - Firepower Forums __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

02-19-2011, 08:39 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Bill, The Borchardt extractor is made just like the 1900 Luger extractor...one piece spring steel that inserts into the hinge part of the breechblock and is retained by a lug on the bottom. It is just a bit longer than the Luger extractor. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-19-2011, 09:32 PM	#12
TennBill2 RIP Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 6 Posts	1900 extractor? Like this? Attached Thumbnails

02-19-2011, 09:44 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Yep. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-17-2011, 10:52 PM	#15
Death-Ace User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I saw a thread about a byf 42 "Black Widow" P.08 in pristine shape a soldier found in the back of a car. Supposed a car bomb was in, but this was a surprise! If someone could find it, maybe it'd offer a possibility of the Borchardt's fate. That P.08 I believe is in the regiment's museum or "historical company" now. Can't say for certain.

05-18-2011, 03:25 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Uh, don't remember the Borchardt 'what happened to it', but although there are soldiers that are interested in history, most are not. You can do a search on youtube and find this. But one unit and another unit may do totally different things with guns they find, most being destroyed. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV