Mark on trigger-guard ?

mecano44 · 03-25-2011, 10:46 AM

hello Everybody

I'm new on this forum, but I collect Parabellums ( as you for sure know we dont use to say "Luger" in Switzerland ) for a long time.

I have an Imperial Luger with a 1912 mark on the receiver and usual military markings : C/D, C/C, C/S + Erfurt Imperial Eagle. Its is an altered one, I guess after 1920, because the troggle-lock is DWM . As you can see the old-open has been added, and the frame as no stock-lug. There are many C/D on parts. ( also unde the stocks )

There are two strange points, I would like to get some information

According to " Walter" the Erfurt serial numbers of the year 1912 dont go over the "a" suffix and " Still " gives 866b as maximum number known . I have a 1034b...... any idea about this ?

Second point : there is a gothic P mark on the trigger-guard....any explanation about that ? there seem to be a "crown" over the P, but hard to say...

Many thanks for any answer and apologies for my English

George Anderson · 03-26-2011, 09:32 AM

Pierre, the fact that your 1912 Erfurt P08 is serial number 1034b indicates that Still's previous estimate needs to be expanded upward to at least 1034b. Jan Still's estimates are based on actual observations.

The gothic P on your trigger guard is simply an inspector's stamp in which the crown is only partly visible. This is most likely due to human error or a worn die.

mecano44 · 03-28-2011, 03:09 AM

Thanks for the answer George !
I red somewhere that marks on trigger-guard on Imperial Lugers were often property marks...

Have you any information about that ???

George Anderson · 03-28-2011, 08:00 AM

Pierre, very few Imperial pistols, including the P08, will have a Prussian eagle stamp on the front of the trigger guard. This type stamp is thought by many to be a Prussian military property mark but it looks alot like the eagle firing proof. I believe I have one. If I can find it I will post a photo.

Norme · 03-28-2011, 09:06 AM

George is right, the mark on Pierre's 1912 Erfurt is not a Prussian property mark. It's an Erfurt inspection mark surmounted by an RC mark like this one on my 1912 Erfurt. Regards

mecano44 · 03-28-2011, 11:27 AM

Thanks Norme and George for your help

George Anderson · 03-29-2011, 06:26 PM

Pierre, here is a photo of the "Prussian property" stamp I refer to above. I don't know that it really is a property stamp as it appears on some Imperial weaponsa in rather bizarre places.

mecano44 · 03-31-2011, 03:28 AM

Very nice model George !

According to what I read, the "Prussian eagle" should have been used on trigger-guard as a property mark. But the official directive seems to have been transmited to the units armorers beginning of 1918. Due to the situation, only few pistols were marked.

There is something similar with swiss military pistols. Some pieces were sold on the private market. These specimen have a serial number beginning with a "P" what means private. On the other hand, swiss army members, holder of a gun, were allowed to keep it after they had completed their military duties ( age 20 to 50 , now 20 to 32 )
The day of the "liberation" the weapons were marked with a "P" anywhere ( normally on trigger-guard ). This ment the gun was no more " in duty".
Some book especially americans make a confusion between these "P" markings. The fact is that the specimen produced for the commercial market, had the "P" only before the serial number, and these numbers where different from military serials.....

For example the P49 ( SIG P210) military serials begin with 100'000, and the commercial with 50'000. The same happened with the P 06/29. Military numbers are in the range 50'000 to 77'000, and commercial in the 20'000 ( more or less)

In 1998 the swiss army sold huge quantities of the former infantry rifle, K31 Gewehr ( 7,5x55 swiss) . You could get it for $80 , and for $120 you got the rifle and the bayonet with identical serial number.
Many people think that gun and bayonet were delivered together, but in fact it was not the case. After the ceremony of the "handing" of the guns, during the first week of the "recruit school " , the new soldiers went to the battalion armorer to let their bayonet be marked at the same number as the rifle....and not everybody did, because it was only a use not a guideline....

03-25-2011, 10:46 AM	#1
mecano44 User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Switzerland Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Mark on trigger-guard ? hello Everybody I'm new on this forum, but I collect Parabellums ( as you for sure know we dont use to say "Luger" in Switzerland ) for a long time. I have an Imperial Luger with a 1912 mark on the receiver and usual military markings : C/D, C/C, C/S + Erfurt Imperial Eagle. Its is an altered one, I guess after 1920, because the troggle-lock is DWM . As you can see the old-open has been added, and the frame as no stock-lug. There are many C/D on parts. ( also unde the stocks ) There are two strange points, I would like to get some information According to " Walter" the Erfurt serial numbers of the year 1912 dont go over the "a" suffix and " Still " gives 866b as maximum number known . I have a 1034b...... any idea about this ? Second point : there is a gothic P mark on the trigger-guard....any explanation about that ? there seem to be a "crown" over the P, but hard to say... Many thanks for any answer and apologies for my English Attached Thumbnails

03-28-2011, 09:06 AM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	George is right, the mark on Pierre's 1912 Erfurt is not a Prussian property mark. It's an Erfurt inspection mark surmounted by an RC mark like this one on my 1912 Erfurt. Regards Attached Thumbnails

03-29-2011, 06:26 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Pierre, here is a photo of the "Prussian property" stamp I refer to above. I don't know that it really is a property stamp as it appears on some Imperial weaponsa in rather bizarre places. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images Last edited by George Anderson; 03-29-2011 at 08:58 PM.

03-26-2011, 09:32 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Pierre, the fact that your 1912 Erfurt P08 is serial number 1034b indicates that Still's previous estimate needs to be expanded upward to at least 1034b. Jan Still's estimates are based on actual observations. The gothic P on your trigger guard is simply an inspector's stamp in which the crown is only partly visible. This is most likely due to human error or a worn die.

03-28-2011, 03:09 AM	#3
mecano44 User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Switzerland Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks for the answer George ! I red somewhere that marks on trigger-guard on Imperial Lugers were often property marks... Have you any information about that ???

03-28-2011, 08:00 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Pierre, very few Imperial pistols, including the P08, will have a Prussian eagle stamp on the front of the trigger guard. This type stamp is thought by many to be a Prussian military property mark but it looks alot like the eagle firing proof. I believe I have one. If I can find it I will post a photo.

03-28-2011, 11:27 AM	#6
mecano44 User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Switzerland Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks Norme and George for your help

03-31-2011, 03:28 AM	#8
mecano44 User Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Switzerland Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Very nice model George ! According to what I read, the "Prussian eagle" should have been used on trigger-guard as a property mark. But the official directive seems to have been transmited to the units armorers beginning of 1918. Due to the situation, only few pistols were marked. There is something similar with swiss military pistols. Some pieces were sold on the private market. These specimen have a serial number beginning with a "P" what means private. On the other hand, swiss army members, holder of a gun, were allowed to keep it after they had completed their military duties ( age 20 to 50 , now 20 to 32 ) The day of the "liberation" the weapons were marked with a "P" anywhere ( normally on trigger-guard ). This ment the gun was no more " in duty". Some book especially americans make a confusion between these "P" markings. The fact is that the specimen produced for the commercial market, had the "P" only before the serial number, and these numbers where different from military serials..... For example the P49 ( SIG P210) military serials begin with 100'000, and the commercial with 50'000. The same happened with the P 06/29. Military numbers are in the range 50'000 to 77'000, and commercial in the 20'000 ( more or less) In 1998 the swiss army sold huge quantities of the former infantry rifle, K31 Gewehr ( 7,5x55 swiss) . You could get it for $80 , and for $120 you got the rifle and the bayonet with identical serial number. Many people think that gun and bayonet were delivered together, but in fact it was not the case. After the ceremony of the "handing" of the guns, during the first week of the "recruit school " , the new soldiers went to the battalion armorer to let their bayonet be marked at the same number as the rifle....and not everybody did, because it was only a use not a guideline....