ebay unusual stock question

01-31-2002, 10:50 PM

I note that forum advice on the unusual stock on ebay was that if ATF catches you with it--Dooms day. Would not the situation more likely occur if you were caught with it "attached" to a Luger. What about all of us who have Artillery and Navy stocks displayed with attached artillerys and navies and also own detached 4" bl Lugers? I believe that "attached" is the key word here----wanna bet that after the seller was "scared off" ebay; a shrewd collector[probably one of us] contacted the guy and bought it cheap?

tom · 01-31-2002, 11:16 PM

Hi Art,

There have been numerous cases where the courts have held that simply possessing disassembled items, which, if assembled, would constitute an unregistered Title II weapon was sufficient grounds to slap a federal felony conviction on someone.

Granted, this mostly happened in the 60's and 70's, and hopefully the ATF now has something better to do. But the question remains, to paraphrase Dirty Harry Callaghan, "Do you feel lucky?" I don't.

Tom

Orv Reichert · 02-01-2002, 12:20 AM

Key word in the law is it is illegal to POSSESS ..even if not assembled!

Believe me, even your local cops are schooled in that reg... that is why/how they go after the sawed off shotguns, too. If you have a extra barrel for your shotgun that is shorter than 18", you can go to jail! [I worked with law enforcement for 20+ years....and I would not tempt fate!]

Orv

02-01-2002, 12:23 AM

Art & Tom,

I think that simultaneous possession is the violation.

I have personal knowledge of a case where a man possessed a weapon that was capable of being converted to full auto, by the simple interchange of parts.

The weapon was found on his property, properly in the self loading mode, "BUT" in the "near vicinity" of the violating parts. (in this case "near vicinity" was on the same property in a separate and covered walk connected building).

The charge of "full auto weapons" was used to confine him until other investigations were completed. (over one year)

He was then convicted of this and other charges including possession of weapon silencers and murder. He is now serving life without parole.

And He seemed to be an OK guy weird but OK, Much like some of us, He loved GUNS.

So I'll Not Take Any Chances with the feds.

ViggoG

BILL · 02-01-2002, 02:25 AM

No doubt, it would be nice to have that unusual stock but as is stated it is too darn risky. You could easily lose any guns you have, never be allowed to own any, and your freedom. Worth it?

John Sabato · 02-01-2002, 09:58 AM

02-01-2002, 12:20 PM

Back to the question of possession of An Artillery stock and Artillery while also in possession of other Lugers. If this were a problem--surely the feds would be raiding Ralph, Bob Simpson, Fred Fiet and all the other collectors and dealers who openly display these combinations of Lugers. Has anyone directly posed this queston to the ATF??

John Sabato · 02-01-2002, 01:53 PM

I was pondering the same question when you post appeared. Just how would we, as a group (of Luger owners or collectors) pose this question to ATF in such a way as to not bring down the hammer of injustice that they are famous for? While at the same time ensuring that we get some substantial guidance that we can hang a legal hat on?

-John

Orv Reichert · 02-02-2002, 12:44 AM

you need to have and read the ATF Curio and Relics list which also lists the pistols/rifles exempted by specific types and/or numbers...the following is from pages 34-35

These are

"WEAPONS REMOVED FROM THE NFA

as collector's items and classified as curios or relics under the GCA"

Orv Reichert

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BATF.jpg

Orv Reichert · 02-02-2002, 01:28 AM

The FIREARMS CURIOS OR RELICS LIST is a 52 page booklet and can be ordered from the U S Gov Printing office or the BATF

Ask for..........ATF P 5300.11(3-2001)

01-31-2002, 10:50 PM	#1
art buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	ebay unusual stock question I note that forum advice on the unusual stock on ebay was that if ATF catches you with it--Dooms day. Would not the situation more likely occur if you were caught with it "attached" to a Luger. What about all of us who have Artillery and Navy stocks displayed with attached artillerys and navies and also own detached 4" bl Lugers? I believe that "attached" is the key word here----wanna bet that after the seller was "scared off" ebay; a shrewd collector[probably one of us] contacted the guy and bought it cheap?

01-31-2002, 11:16 PM	#2
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: ebay unusual stock question Hi Art, There have been numerous cases where the courts have held that simply possessing disassembled items, which, if assembled, would constitute an unregistered Title II weapon was sufficient grounds to slap a federal felony conviction on someone. Granted, this mostly happened in the 60's and 70's, and hopefully the ATF now has something better to do. But the question remains, to paraphrase Dirty Harry Callaghan, "Do you feel lucky?" I don't. Tom

02-01-2002, 12:20 AM	#3
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	stock question Key word in the law is it is illegal to POSSESS ..even if not assembled! Believe me, even your local cops are schooled in that reg... that is why/how they go after the sawed off shotguns, too. If you have a extra barrel for your shotgun that is shorter than 18", you can go to jail! [I worked with law enforcement for 20+ years....and I would not tempt fate!] Orv

02-01-2002, 12:23 AM	#4
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: ebay unusual stock question Art & Tom, I think that simultaneous possession is the violation. I have personal knowledge of a case where a man possessed a weapon that was capable of being converted to full auto, by the simple interchange of parts. The weapon was found on his property, properly in the self loading mode, "BUT" in the "near vicinity" of the violating parts. (in this case "near vicinity" was on the same property in a separate and covered walk connected building). The charge of "full auto weapons" was used to confine him until other investigations were completed. (over one year) He was then convicted of this and other charges including possession of weapon silencers and murder. He is now serving life without parole. And He seemed to be an OK guy weird but OK, Much like some of us, He loved GUNS. So I'll Not Take Any Chances with the feds. ViggoG

02-01-2002, 02:25 AM	#5
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: stock question No doubt, it would be nice to have that unusual stock but as is stated it is too darn risky. You could easily lose any guns you have, never be allowed to own any, and your freedom. Worth it?

02-01-2002, 09:58 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Tom please check your email... (EOM)

02-01-2002, 12:20 PM	#7
Art Buchanan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: ebay unusual stock question Back to the question of possession of An Artillery stock and Artillery while also in possession of other Lugers. If this were a problem--surely the feds would be raiding Ralph, Bob Simpson, Fred Fiet and all the other collectors and dealers who openly display these combinations of Lugers. Has anyone directly posed this queston to the ATF??

02-01-2002, 01:53 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	You are a mind reader Art. I was pondering the same question when you post appeared. Just how would we, as a group (of Luger owners or collectors) pose this question to ATF in such a way as to not bring down the hammer of injustice that they are famous for? While at the same time ensuring that we get some substantial guidance that we can hang a legal hat on? -John

02-02-2002, 12:44 AM	#9
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BATF EXEMPTED LUGERS WITH STOCKS you need to have and read the ATF Curio and Relics list which also lists the pistols/rifles exempted by specific types and/or numbers...the following is from pages 34-35 These are "WEAPONS REMOVED FROM THE NFA as collector's items and classified as curios or relics under the GCA" Orv Reichert http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BATF.jpg

02-02-2002, 01:28 AM	#10
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How to Order from BATF. The FIREARMS CURIOS OR RELICS LIST is a 52 page booklet and can be ordered from the U S Gov Printing office or the BATF Ask for..........ATF P 5300.11(3-2001)