Where did "42" come from (in S/42 context)?

alvin · 05-10-2010, 08:11 PM

Was it factory #42 ?? Why I have never seen factory #41, nor #43.... or there were other numbers representing other factories, but I did not know?

Edward Tinker · 05-10-2010, 08:16 PM

no, it was not factory 42

It was a random code; there were hundreds of codes for hundreds of companies

Mauser used S/42 42 and byf

alvin · 05-10-2010, 09:09 PM

Thanks Ed. No wonder I have never seen 41, nor 43. The other number related with pistol was 480 on some P38.

Vlim · 05-11-2010, 01:36 PM

A common theory is that the 'S' code, apart from being a year letter code for 1936 that was not officially introduced, was also part of the scheme to hide the fact that other companies than the ones that were officially allowed to manufacture were also producing arms and ammunition. In the 1930s Simson was still the only 'official' supplier and it is thought that the 'S' is an attempt to fool the outside world into thinking that Simson was involved. 42 was used to identify the actual maker, in this case Mauser.

A similar marking sequence can be found on ammunition, where Polte in Magdeburg was the only official supplier and other companies were given a 'P' code, followed by a number as well.

The sequence they used worked well, we are still confused at times

Alvin: I can suggest the book by Michael Heidler on the markings. The book not only shows an extensive codes list, but also a lot about the coding systems themselves, including interesting copies of original 1920s and 1930s documents. 'Deutsche Fertigungskennzeichen bis 1945'.

It can be ordered from Michael Heidler directly at: Michael Heidler [codebuch@rocketmail.com]

Vlim · 05-11-2010, 01:44 PM

ps: Factory S/27 was Erma

suum cuique · 05-11-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

ps: Factory S/27 was Erma

Who made the S 350?

c3006 · 05-11-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by suum cuique

who made the s 350?

chevy?

Railsplitter · 05-11-2010, 09:59 PM

I once read somewhere that the Mauser codes of S, S/42, 42 and byf evolved (and the author freely admitted that he had no factual evidence to back this up ... that it was only his theory) this way:

1) S was the original letter code given to Mauser.

2) When Mauser gets the official government contract to produce lugers it is an eight year contract
to end in 1942 so S becomes S/42.

3) In 1939 the war begins and the Nazi government wants to change the codes for manufacturers
of weapons and wants to use letters included in the name of the actual manufacturer. Until
the new code is developed the S disappears and S/42 becomes 42.

4) The Nazi government abandons the idea of using letters contained in the manufacturers name
in favor of a completely random letter code and 42 becomes byf.

Just a theory.

GGG · 11-12-2010, 10:30 AM

Hello,
that's an interesting theory. But it's wrong.

Under the Treaty of Versailles only a few companies were allowed to produce weapons, ammunition and equipment for the German Army and Police.

The only gun manufacturer was Simson & Co., located in Suhl/Thuringia.

To cover all the other illegal manufacturers, the government gave official letter codes to the legal companies, like "S" to Simsons (guns), "P" to Polte (ammunition), and so on.

The illegal companies used this letters to cover their production and added an secret number to them. So Mauser used the "S" for "Simson" and "42" as it's own number. The Allied controll commissions only noticed the "S" and thought that the manufacturer is Simson & Co.

With best wishes
Michael

Oh sorry, I haven't noticed the one post explaining the same ...

Edward Tinker · 11-12-2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:

To cover all the other illegal manufacturers, the government gave official letter codes to the legal companies, like "S" to Simsons (guns), "P" to Polte (ammunition), and so on.

Are you referring to the S toggles? If so, then that is a wrong assumption.

This theory of the S meaning Simson for the S/42 is in the new Mauser book. I am still not convinced, as it seems every time an 'S' is used it is attributed to Simson, so I need a lot more convincing.

The Allied commission was gone in 1927, so why would they feel the need to use the Simson 'S'?

You see the S as a date code also, Kreighoff S dates and then you see the skryptic S on the k dates, and then later the S/42 on mauser.

The germans did hide their companies under codes to confuse the enemy; but the 's', being for Simson, well, I need more documentation.

Ed

sheepherder · 11-12-2010, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The germans did hide their companies under codes to confuse the enemy; but the 's', being for Simson, well, I need more documentation.

Ed

Wasn't the 'S' code reserved for the Spandau manufactured Lugers???

Vlim · 11-12-2010, 01:53 PM

Hmm, always thought it was the 'S' for Springfield.

42 = the meaning of life, the universe and everything. That makes sense. To an IT-person at least

sheepherder · 11-12-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

42 = the meaning of life, the universe and everything. That makes sense. To an IT-person at least

...and thanks for all the fish!

John Sabato · 11-12-2010, 03:44 PM

you guys are a riot! But you are probably confusing the new folks who don't know you are kidding!

alanint · 11-12-2010, 03:53 PM

The "S" stood for "Secret" production. It was in English to further confuse the Allied Commision!

Railsplitter · 11-12-2010, 04:13 PM

Well, if the purpose of the code was to confuse ... it looks like it's still workin'.

05-10-2010, 08:11 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Where did "42" come from (in S/42 context)? Was it factory #42 ?? Why I have never seen factory #41, nor #43.... or there were other numbers representing other factories, but I did not know?

11-12-2010, 10:30 AM	#9
GGG User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 10 Thanks: 3 Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts	Hello, that's an interesting theory. But it's wrong. Under the Treaty of Versailles only a few companies were allowed to produce weapons, ammunition and equipment for the German Army and Police. The only gun manufacturer was Simson & Co., located in Suhl/Thuringia. To cover all the other illegal manufacturers, the government gave official letter codes to the legal companies, like "S" to Simsons (guns), "P" to Polte (ammunition), and so on. The illegal companies used this letters to cover their production and added an secret number to them. So Mauser used the "S" for "Simson" and "42" as it's own number. The Allied controll commissions only noticed the "S" and thought that the manufacturer is Simson & Co. With best wishes Michael Oh sorry, I haven't noticed the one post explaining the same ... Last edited by GGG; 11-12-2010 at 10:33 AM. Reason: My own scattiness ;-)

11-12-2010, 03:44 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	you guys are a riot! But you are probably confusing the new folks who don't know you are kidding! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-10-2010, 08:16 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	no, it was not factory 42 It was a random code; there were hundreds of codes for hundreds of companies Mauser used S/42 42 and byf

05-10-2010, 09:09 PM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Thanks Ed. No wonder I have never seen 41, nor 43. The other number related with pistol was 480 on some P38.

05-11-2010, 01:36 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	A common theory is that the 'S' code, apart from being a year letter code for 1936 that was not officially introduced, was also part of the scheme to hide the fact that other companies than the ones that were officially allowed to manufacture were also producing arms and ammunition. In the 1930s Simson was still the only 'official' supplier and it is thought that the 'S' is an attempt to fool the outside world into thinking that Simson was involved. 42 was used to identify the actual maker, in this case Mauser. A similar marking sequence can be found on ammunition, where Polte in Magdeburg was the only official supplier and other companies were given a 'P' code, followed by a number as well. The sequence they used worked well, we are still confused at times Alvin: I can suggest the book by Michael Heidler on the markings. The book not only shows an extensive codes list, but also a lot about the coding systems themselves, including interesting copies of original 1920s and 1930s documents. 'Deutsche Fertigungskennzeichen bis 1945'. It can be ordered from Michael Heidler directly at: Michael Heidler [codebuch@rocketmail.com]

05-11-2010, 01:44 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	ps: Factory S/27 was Erma

05-11-2010, 09:59 PM	#8
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	I once read somewhere that the Mauser codes of S, S/42, 42 and byf evolved (and the author freely admitted that he had no factual evidence to back this up ... that it was only his theory) this way: 1) S was the original letter code given to Mauser. 2) When Mauser gets the official government contract to produce lugers it is an eight year contract to end in 1942 so S becomes S/42. 3) In 1939 the war begins and the Nazi government wants to change the codes for manufacturers of weapons and wants to use letters included in the name of the actual manufacturer. Until the new code is developed the S disappears and S/42 becomes 42. 4) The Nazi government abandons the idea of using letters contained in the manufacturers name in favor of a completely random letter code and 42 becomes byf. Just a theory.

11-12-2010, 01:53 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hmm, always thought it was the 'S' for Springfield. 42 = the meaning of life, the universe and everything. That makes sense. To an IT-person at least

11-12-2010, 03:53 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The "S" stood for "Secret" production. It was in English to further confuse the Allied Commision!

11-12-2010, 04:13 PM	#16
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Well, if the purpose of the code was to confuse ... it looks like it's still workin'.