Looking for advice - S/42

frankjoy · 10-16-2010, 04:29 PM

Just came into temporary possesion of a 1936 S/42. It belongs to a freind whose father acquired it in the 40s or 50s. Possibly a "bring back". The only non-matching number on it is the trigger plate. He had been told his whole life the firing pin had been removed to render it inoperative. That was not true. Even with it being the first P-08 I've ever examined, it took only a few seconds to determine there is indeed a firing pin and spring present. Comparing it to an IPB found online, it appears all the parts are present. I have not attempted to load and live fire it. It does not dry fire. (Please bear in mind I'm a rookie with the P-08 - it wouldn't surprise me to learn they need a round chambered to make them capable of firing!) Before I get frustrated and tear my hair out, I thought I'd ask if there might be an obvious troubleshooting starting point I'm unaware of. I'd love to return this piece to my friend and report that it's in full working condition. Any help or advice would be sincerely appreciated. Any help or advice would be sincerely appreciated.

DavidJayUden · 10-16-2010, 04:42 PM

After cycling the toggle to the rear on an EMPTY chamber, and with the safety Giesert NOT showing, you should be able to pull the trigger to hear a click. If not, and I have some ideas, we'll need a few pictures to deterimine what is not there. Youtube has some excellent tutorials on how to disassemble the P08, then it is up to you and your digital camera.
Do not pull your hair out and do not try to fix it out of desperation. That is when things get expensive, especially considering that those stubborn parts are numbered to the gun.
dju

frankjoy · 10-16-2010, 05:20 PM

Thanks, David. No click. Not really expecting to get all that frustrated, but have learned it's always easier to ask someone who knows more than me on any given firearm. :-) When I first brought it home, I could get it to dry fire but the trigger was very, very "spongey". I disassembled and reassembled to learn more about it, and just may have slipped a widget somewhere in reassembly. I went through several video tutorials and animated operational cutaways, and think I got it right, though.

Railsplitter · 10-16-2010, 06:33 PM

I can't help but think that the "spongey" trigger feel may be related to some degree anyway to the fact that the trigger plate does not seem to be original to the gun. Did your dis/reassembly have any effect on the trigger pull? In any case, as David pointed out, if all the parts are present and the pistol is assembled correctly you should be able to **** and dry fire it. Since it dry fired before you dis/reassembled it, I would repeat the process when you have plenty of time and interruptions can be minimized (I know ... dream on, right)? See if anything changes. Keep in mind that you shouldn't have to force anything during the process. Lugers fit together like hand-in-glove. If anything seems to need excessive muscle to go together, stop and back up because something is wrong. Pictures would be great. It has happened in the past that if a person in need of assistance posts their location another Forum member in the area may offer to swing by and take a look.

frankjoy · 10-17-2010, 02:24 PM

Thanks, Railsplitter. I'm in the process of disassembling it again. This time I'm going to clean it thoroughly and oil it properly before reassembling. My friend tells me it hasn't been touched since he was a child and we're both near-60. I got the same feeling as you about the trigger plate, but to the naked eye that's all working properly. No wiggle (or any sort of movement) in the plate at all when it's assembled and finger pressure is applied to the trigger. Gonna just keep on plugging away at this till I figure it out. Like I told Dave, it's just smarter to open a conversation with folks who've already "been there". :-)

BTW, I'm just south of Austin TX in Hays County if anybody's close by. In Mountain City, which is a tiny development located right next to Hays High School on FM 2770.

frankjoy · 10-17-2010, 06:39 PM

Well, I tore it completely apart and reassembled it. Getting better at this, and much more comfortable with my understanding of it.

Also cleaned it as well as could be accomplished by hand with a toothbrush, toothpicks, and Q-Tips. Oiled it lightly while reassembling. It wasn't too bad. Got a small amount of **old** grease out of it - probably 50 or 60 years old judging by the history the owner gave me. Small amounts of dust-type dirt, too. No real firing residue.

Put it all back together confident that it would work after all that lovin'. Nope. I'm convinced it's down to 2 possibilities. 1) The trigger plate or 2) the trigger bar.

The trigger plate is mismatched serially to begin with, so no telling what wear or abuse it was exposed to on the weapon it was original to. It was replaced at some point as a repair to solve a problem, wasn't it? I'm leaning hard toward this as still the problem all these years later.

The trigger bar... I can't tell if it's doing it's job. Is the firing pin being retained in battery when cocked? Tried looking down the barrel with a light and can see the pin. Just can't tell if it's in battery or not because I'm looking head-on at it. Can anybody help me eliminate the trigger bar? How can you tell if the firing pin is being held to the rear by the trigger bar without the help of radiography?

BTW guys, learned my digital camera is too old to be of any value here. Won't do close-ups on small small stuff.

Continued appreciation for any advice.

Frank

whcoyote · 10-17-2010, 07:13 PM

Make sure the pistol is unloaded.

Remove the upper assembly of the pistol (receiver, barrel, toggle train assembly in one unit) from the frame. Do not disassemble it. With the upper assembly removed from the frame, pull up on the toggle knobs and retract the toggle train fully to the rear of the receiver/barrel assembly. Now move the breech block forward into battery by pressing down on the joint at the front/rear toggle links. If you meet no resistance as the breech block closes, then the sear bar is not engaging and holding the firing pin back as the breech block moves into battery. The firing pin has a tab on it's left side that engages the sear bar, and cocks the pin, as the breech block moves into battery. If you feel no resistance here, disassemble and inspect the firing pin and sear bar. Make sure the tab on the firing pin is not broken off, or the sear bar is not damaged.

If you feel resistance upon closing the breech in this manner, close it fully and hold the assembly in your hand with your thumb pressing down on the front/rear toggle joint to keep it in battery. Then press inward on the front end of the sear bar. This will release the firing pin - you should hear a click.

If that worked, again retract the toggle assembly fully, push it forward into battery to recock the action. Assemble the upper assembly back onto the frame. Assemble the trigger plate trying to make sure the bottom of the trigger lever is engaged in the slot at the top of the trigger, press in the trigger plate and lock it in with the takedown lever. Pull the trigger. If the firing pin will not release now, the problem is in the side plate assembly - more than likely a maladjusted trigger lever. This can be fixed by a good Lugersmith.

When you test the assembled pistol, make sure the thumb safety is disengaged. This would be the position that covers up the word "Gesichert".
Bob

nukem556 · 10-17-2010, 07:18 PM

make sure the little spring loaded pin at the end of the trigger bar is sticking out, and not stuck back in its recess...this is what contacts the trigger lever on the sideplate....you can check to see if the firing pin is not being caught and ccoked by the trigger bar by cycling the action on EMPTY chamber and shining a light down the barrel to see if the firing pin is retracted as it should be, or has ridden forward and is protruding from he bolt face

whcoyote · 10-18-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

make sure the little spring loaded pin at the end of the trigger bar is sticking out, and not stuck back in its recess...this is what contacts the trigger lever on the sideplate....you can check to see if the firing pin is not being caught and ccoked by the trigger bar by cycling the action on EMPTY chamber and shining a light down the barrel to see if the firing pin is retracted as it should be, or has ridden forward and is protruding from he bolt face

I think what nukem means here is "Sear Bar". He is correct in the operation. Sometimes the sear bar plunger will get gunked up and will stick, not pop out enough for the trigger lever to contact it. Thanks, nukem.
Bob

frankjoy · 10-19-2010, 10:08 PM

You guys are too good to me! :-) This is exactly why I got on here. These are the types of troubleshooting techniques I would have taken too long to finally figure out on my own. The experience of others is always priceless, and I clearly came to the right place. I'll have to wait till tomorrow evening to follow up on your advice, but it's all great! I'm excited to get to it.

I know the firing pin is good. About two years ago the owner of this piece told me his father had tossed out the firing pin decades ago to get the gun into the country. I bought him a new firing pin for his birthday. Well, as it turns out, his father had not removed the firing pin (or anything else). Since the birthday gift pin of two years ago was available, I changed it out. There was no visible damage to the existing pin, but I changed it anyway since I was in there.

I think I'm down to either the sear bar or the trigger plate, and the trigger plate is serially mismatched to the gun. The plate was replaced before I was born as an armorer's answer to some other problem. It was likely cannibalized off an inop weapon.

Thanks again, guys! I'll post how it worked out.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-19-2010, 11:10 PM

Frank, I have not seen this mentioned above but you might want to try this. Take the top cannon off of the frame. Push in on the sear bar. You should hear the click of the fireing pin being released and fireing. If not, pull the toggle back and try again. No click? It's not the sideplate that is the problem. Pushing in on the searbar SHOULD fire the weapon. If it does fire..the problem can be isolated to the trigger and sideplate. With a misnumbered sideplate..I suspect it already.
If the trigger pull is spongy you might also want to check on the spring behind the trigger. Some people lose this apon disasembly and replace it with a ball point pen spring making it mushy.
Jerry Burney

10-16-2010, 04:29 PM	#1
frankjoy User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Just South of Austin Texas Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Looking for advice - S/42 Just came into temporary possesion of a 1936 S/42. It belongs to a freind whose father acquired it in the 40s or 50s. Possibly a "bring back". The only non-matching number on it is the trigger plate. He had been told his whole life the firing pin had been removed to render it inoperative. That was not true. Even with it being the first P-08 I've ever examined, it took only a few seconds to determine there is indeed a firing pin and spring present. Comparing it to an IPB found online, it appears all the parts are present. I have not attempted to load and live fire it. It does not dry fire. (Please bear in mind I'm a rookie with the P-08 - it wouldn't surprise me to learn they need a round chambered to make them capable of firing!) Before I get frustrated and tear my hair out, I thought I'd ask if there might be an obvious troubleshooting starting point I'm unaware of. I'd love to return this piece to my friend and report that it's in full working condition. Any help or advice would be sincerely appreciated. Any help or advice would be sincerely appreciated.

10-19-2010, 11:10 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	Frank, I have not seen this mentioned above but you might want to try this. Take the top cannon off of the frame. Push in on the sear bar. You should hear the click of the fireing pin being released and fireing. If not, pull the toggle back and try again. No click? It's not the sideplate that is the problem. Pushing in on the searbar SHOULD fire the weapon. If it does fire..the problem can be isolated to the trigger and sideplate. With a misnumbered sideplate..I suspect it already. If the trigger pull is spongy you might also want to check on the spring behind the trigger. Some people lose this apon disasembly and replace it with a ball point pen spring making it mushy. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-16-2010, 04:42 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	After cycling the toggle to the rear on an EMPTY chamber, and with the safety Giesert NOT showing, you should be able to pull the trigger to hear a click. If not, and I have some ideas, we'll need a few pictures to deterimine what is not there. Youtube has some excellent tutorials on how to disassemble the P08, then it is up to you and your digital camera. Do not pull your hair out and do not try to fix it out of desperation. That is when things get expensive, especially considering that those stubborn parts are numbered to the gun. dju

10-16-2010, 05:20 PM	#3
frankjoy User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Just South of Austin Texas Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, David. No click. Not really expecting to get all that frustrated, but have learned it's always easier to ask someone who knows more than me on any given firearm. :-) When I first brought it home, I could get it to dry fire but the trigger was very, very "spongey". I disassembled and reassembled to learn more about it, and just may have slipped a widget somewhere in reassembly. I went through several video tutorials and animated operational cutaways, and think I got it right, though.

10-16-2010, 06:33 PM	#4
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	I can't help but think that the "spongey" trigger feel may be related to some degree anyway to the fact that the trigger plate does not seem to be original to the gun. Did your dis/reassembly have any effect on the trigger pull? In any case, as David pointed out, if all the parts are present and the pistol is assembled correctly you should be able to **** and dry fire it. Since it dry fired before you dis/reassembled it, I would repeat the process when you have plenty of time and interruptions can be minimized (I know ... dream on, right)? See if anything changes. Keep in mind that you shouldn't have to force anything during the process. Lugers fit together like hand-in-glove. If anything seems to need excessive muscle to go together, stop and back up because something is wrong. Pictures would be great. It has happened in the past that if a person in need of assistance posts their location another Forum member in the area may offer to swing by and take a look.

10-17-2010, 02:24 PM	#5
frankjoy User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Just South of Austin Texas Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, Railsplitter. I'm in the process of disassembling it again. This time I'm going to clean it thoroughly and oil it properly before reassembling. My friend tells me it hasn't been touched since he was a child and we're both near-60. I got the same feeling as you about the trigger plate, but to the naked eye that's all working properly. No wiggle (or any sort of movement) in the plate at all when it's assembled and finger pressure is applied to the trigger. Gonna just keep on plugging away at this till I figure it out. Like I told Dave, it's just smarter to open a conversation with folks who've already "been there". :-) BTW, I'm just south of Austin TX in Hays County if anybody's close by. In Mountain City, which is a tiny development located right next to Hays High School on FM 2770.

10-17-2010, 06:39 PM	#6
frankjoy User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Just South of Austin Texas Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, I tore it completely apart and reassembled it. Getting better at this, and much more comfortable with my understanding of it. Also cleaned it as well as could be accomplished by hand with a toothbrush, toothpicks, and Q-Tips. Oiled it lightly while reassembling. It wasn't too bad. Got a small amount of old grease out of it - probably 50 or 60 years old judging by the history the owner gave me. Small amounts of dust-type dirt, too. No real firing residue. Put it all back together confident that it would work after all that lovin'. Nope. I'm convinced it's down to 2 possibilities. 1) The trigger plate or 2) the trigger bar. The trigger plate is mismatched serially to begin with, so no telling what wear or abuse it was exposed to on the weapon it was original to. It was replaced at some point as a repair to solve a problem, wasn't it? I'm leaning hard toward this as still the problem all these years later. The trigger bar... I can't tell if it's doing it's job. Is the firing pin being retained in battery when cocked? Tried looking down the barrel with a light and can see the pin. Just can't tell if it's in battery or not because I'm looking head-on at it. Can anybody help me eliminate the trigger bar? How can you tell if the firing pin is being held to the rear by the trigger bar without the help of radiography? BTW guys, learned my digital camera is too old to be of any value here. Won't do close-ups on small small stuff. Continued appreciation for any advice. Frank

10-17-2010, 07:13 PM	#7
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Make sure the pistol is unloaded. Remove the upper assembly of the pistol (receiver, barrel, toggle train assembly in one unit) from the frame. Do not disassemble it. With the upper assembly removed from the frame, pull up on the toggle knobs and retract the toggle train fully to the rear of the receiver/barrel assembly. Now move the breech block forward into battery by pressing down on the joint at the front/rear toggle links. If you meet no resistance as the breech block closes, then the sear bar is not engaging and holding the firing pin back as the breech block moves into battery. The firing pin has a tab on it's left side that engages the sear bar, and cocks the pin, as the breech block moves into battery. If you feel no resistance here, disassemble and inspect the firing pin and sear bar. Make sure the tab on the firing pin is not broken off, or the sear bar is not damaged. If you feel resistance upon closing the breech in this manner, close it fully and hold the assembly in your hand with your thumb pressing down on the front/rear toggle joint to keep it in battery. Then press inward on the front end of the sear bar. This will release the firing pin - you should hear a click. If that worked, again retract the toggle assembly fully, push it forward into battery to recock the action. Assemble the upper assembly back onto the frame. Assemble the trigger plate trying to make sure the bottom of the trigger lever is engaged in the slot at the top of the trigger, press in the trigger plate and lock it in with the takedown lever. Pull the trigger. If the firing pin will not release now, the problem is in the side plate assembly - more than likely a maladjusted trigger lever. This can be fixed by a good Lugersmith. When you test the assembled pistol, make sure the thumb safety is disengaged. This would be the position that covers up the word "Gesichert". Bob

10-17-2010, 07:18 PM	#8
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	make sure the little spring loaded pin at the end of the trigger bar is sticking out, and not stuck back in its recess...this is what contacts the trigger lever on the sideplate....you can check to see if the firing pin is not being caught and ccoked by the trigger bar by cycling the action on EMPTY chamber and shining a light down the barrel to see if the firing pin is retracted as it should be, or has ridden forward and is protruding from he bolt face

10-19-2010, 10:08 PM	#10
frankjoy User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Just South of Austin Texas Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You guys are too good to me! :-) This is exactly why I got on here. These are the types of troubleshooting techniques I would have taken too long to finally figure out on my own. The experience of others is always priceless, and I clearly came to the right place. I'll have to wait till tomorrow evening to follow up on your advice, but it's all great! I'm excited to get to it. I know the firing pin is good. About two years ago the owner of this piece told me his father had tossed out the firing pin decades ago to get the gun into the country. I bought him a new firing pin for his birthday. Well, as it turns out, his father had not removed the firing pin (or anything else). Since the birthday gift pin of two years ago was available, I changed it out. There was no visible damage to the existing pin, but I changed it anyway since I was in there. I think I'm down to either the sear bar or the trigger plate, and the trigger plate is serially mismatched to the gun. The plate was replaced before I was born as an armorer's answer to some other problem. It was likely cannibalized off an inop weapon. Thanks again, guys! I'll post how it worked out.