Help needed dating luger - Page 2

Vlim · 10-09-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Interesting. How do you put in a new barrel liner and have it stay 9mm?

Loctite, according to the owner. They made a bet with the supplier, he won

wlyon · 10-09-2010, 06:24 PM

The barrel is bored out to fit the liner. Looks like a good desk ornament. You can spend a lot of money on it and still not have much. To me more value the way it is. Just one collectors opinion. Bill

DavidJayUden · 10-09-2010, 07:07 PM

Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts.
dju

BCMike · 10-09-2010, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts.
dju

I value my hand a bit more than that. If you saw this pistol up close you would hopefully see it as more of a conversation piece. I'm really trying more to get answers to my original questions about the age etc. rather than thinking about actually shooting it.

DavidJayUden · 10-09-2010, 11:55 PM

OK. Good luck.
dju

Edward Tinker · 10-10-2010, 07:07 AM

Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get...

You didn't answer where it came from?

As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found?

ed

BCMike · 10-10-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get...

You didn't answer where it came from?

As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found?

ed

Hi Ed,
You said in your earlier post:

"Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930".

I thought it couldn't be after 1914 because it doesn't have the stock lug attachment which I understood was added during 1914. Also I don't think it's possible for a deeply stamped series of numbers to have completely disappeared from the barrel AND the frame. The barrel maybe as it is quite corroded but the front of the frame isn't that bad and absolutely no ghost of an impression there.

The story I just got about this luger is not complete but it was given to my friend by someone who said it was found in a river in Germany without the trigger assembly. What year it was found I don't know yet but from the condition I imagine it was long after the end of WW2. I say WW2 because of the magazine which was in the gun when found. It's hard to nail down these stories as you know and they do tend to change a bit in the re-telling over the years. It has been suggested that German officers about to be captured would remove the trigger assembly and throw pistol and trigger in opposite directions to avoid having a working gun fall into enemy hands but who knows?

BCMike · 10-11-2010, 02:00 AM

I've had a chance to do some reading of posts in the various forums here and most appear to indicate that even early lugers had the serial number stamped on the front of frame and barrel as well as other places.

My burning question is why doesn't this one? Any ideas? Also Is the number "1" and number "57" stamped underside of slide significant? (See earlier pics previous page)

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Is the hole above the trigger guard drilled or corroded through?

That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

The DWM toggle and no date places it about 1908-09, made at Deutches Waffen and Munitionsfabrik, if it's miliotary - possibly later if it's a Commercial Luger. After 1909, military receivers were dated.
The numbers on the underside of the receiver lug are an indicator of the pistol's last two serial number digits. The absence of numbers on the frame puzzle me. The barrel is too corroded to have any numbers left.
So, probably a Commercial 1908 or a 1st Model Military.
Bob

BCMike · 10-11-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

The DWM toggle and no date places it about 1908-09, made at Deutches Waffen and Munitionsfabrik. After that the receivers were dated.
Bob

Thanks Bob, have you heard of any lugers that did not have a serial # on the frame under the barrel?

alanint · 10-11-2010, 03:50 PM

[QUOTE=whcoyote;183964]That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

I'm aware of that. The following threads clarified that I was wondering if the hole had been enlarged by drilling or corrosion.

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCMike

Thanks Bob, have you heard of any lugers that did not have a serial # on the frame under the barrel?

Mike:
I have never seen a Luger without a S/N on the nose of the frame. That's not to say that it never happened - just that I'm not aware of it. I collect only Imperial Military Lugers (1904-1918) so there may be some in other genres (?) that are not marked on the nose. I think this Luger was marked in the Commercial fashion: S/N on nose of frame and under barrel; last two digits of S/N under the takedown lever, under the lip of the side plate, on the left side of trigger, on rear of rear toggle link, sometimes on top edge of safety lever tab, bottom of receiver lug, underside of forward part of front toggle link (just behind the breech block). I have also seen Lugers that were commercially marked with the S/N on the safety bar and the sear bar although this is not a prescribed location.
Check all these parts and see if there are any remnants of the S/N anywhere.
Bob

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 09:25 PM

alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

sheepherder · 10-11-2010, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

The absence of numbers on the frame puzzle me.

I have a Russian capture P38 which has had the serial # at the base of the barrel ground away, very skilfully, very smoothly, and very flat. A new number was stamped very lightly in that space. The same number/font is also stamped very lightly on the left side of the slide, and more heavily and with different font on the right side of the frame.

Is it possible that their Lugers were marked similarly??? And a faint # corroded away???

alanint · 10-11-2010, 09:50 PM

Don't even remember making that silly comment...thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

BCMike · 10-11-2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

Mike:
I have never seen a Luger without a S/N on the nose of the frame. That's not to say that it never happened - just that I'm not aware of it. I collect only Imperial Military Lugers (1904-1918) so there may be some in other genres (?) that are not marked on the nose. I think this Luger was marked in the Commercial fashion: S/N on nose of frame and under barrel; last two digits of S/N under the takedown lever, under the lip of the side plate, on the left side of trigger, on rear of rear toggle link, sometimes on top edge of safety lever tab, bottom of receiver lug, underside of forward part of front toggle link (just behind the breech block). I have also seen Lugers that were commercially marked with the S/N on the safety bar and the sear bar although this is not a prescribed location.
Check all these parts and see if there are any remnants of the S/N anywhere.
Bob

Thanks Bob. Please look at my post #16 showing the front of frame with no serial #. Even if worn a lot I'm sure it would be there at least faintly. Also there is a #1 underside of slide and I assume the last 2 dogits of a serial #--57 in a couple of places.

whcoyote · 10-14-2010, 06:20 PM

Yes Mike,I see "_7" on the bottom of the receiver lug - can't make out the first digit. So, that may be a clue as to the S/N of the piece. Still can't explain the blank frame nose. Maybe someone else can help with that, although I think everyone with good knowledge has said their piece - except for George and one or two others.
Bob

John Sabato · 10-15-2010, 09:40 AM

The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed.

Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced"

BCMike · 10-15-2010, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed.

Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced"

No alteration on the pistol. Also I just realised I didn't have my location showing. I'm a Canuck so BATFE would translate to RCMP.

Vlim · 10-15-2010, 11:36 AM

If it was recovered in Europe sometime shortly after the war, it is possible that the gun was stolen or captured from a German, then had it's serial number removed in order to hide it's identity. A number of defaced/unnumbered pistols have surfaced in Belgium the last couple of years.

If it was a stolen or captured gun, the fact that the side plate and trigger were missing may be explained by someone removing these in order to keep the gun safe against abuse (at home, for example). Since there were quite heavy punishments on the possession of fire arms after the war in most countries, it is not unlikely that someone got cold feet and eventually decided to ditch the gun.

10-09-2010, 06:24 PM	#22
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,627 Thanks: 3,165 Thanked 2,546 Times in 951 Posts	The barrel is bored out to fit the liner. Looks like a good desk ornament. You can spend a lot of money on it and still not have much. To me more value the way it is. Just one collectors opinion. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-15-2010, 09:40 AM	#38
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed. Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-09-2010, 07:07 PM	#23
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts. dju

10-09-2010, 11:55 PM	#25
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	OK. Good luck. dju

10-10-2010, 07:07 AM	#26
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get... You didn't answer where it came from? As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found? ed

10-11-2010, 02:00 AM	#28
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've had a chance to do some reading of posts in the various forums here and most appear to indicate that even early lugers had the serial number stamped on the front of frame and barrel as well as other places. My burning question is why doesn't this one? Any ideas? Also Is the number "1" and number "57" stamped underside of slide significant? (See earlier pics previous page)

10-11-2010, 03:50 PM	#31
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	[QUOTE=whcoyote;183964]That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger. I'm aware of that. The following threads clarified that I was wondering if the hole had been enlarged by drilling or corrosion.

10-11-2010, 09:25 PM	#33
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

10-14-2010, 06:20 PM	#37
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Yes Mike,I see "_7" on the bottom of the receiver lug - can't make out the first digit. So, that may be a clue as to the S/N of the piece. Still can't explain the blank frame nose. Maybe someone else can help with that, although I think everyone with good knowledge has said their piece - except for George and one or two others. Bob

10-15-2010, 11:36 AM	#40
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	If it was recovered in Europe sometime shortly after the war, it is possible that the gun was stolen or captured from a German, then had it's serial number removed in order to hide it's identity. A number of defaced/unnumbered pistols have surfaced in Belgium the last couple of years. If it was a stolen or captured gun, the fact that the side plate and trigger were missing may be explained by someone removing these in order to keep the gun safe against abuse (at home, for example). Since there were quite heavy punishments on the possession of fire arms after the war in most countries, it is not unlikely that someone got cold feet and eventually decided to ditch the gun.