LP-08 Witness Mark Missing

mrerick · 05-16-2010, 01:53 PM

Hi,

I was recently lucky enough to purchase my first Artillery Luger LP-08.

It's a DWM from 1917 in the "k" block and appears in original finish with all correct numbered parts.

There are halos around the stamped serial numbers on the barrel, front frame and left side of the receiver.

There is a witness mark on the receiver frame, but no witness mark on the barrel itself.

As I have read on the forums that it's most likely that Erfurt manufactured the barrels on DWM LP-08s, and that they were hand fitted (the numbers on the barrel under the rear sight base are consistent with other reports), I'm curious if the lack of a barrel witness mark is unusual.

Marc

Mauser720 · 05-16-2010, 04:53 PM

Well, I would suspect that if there is no witness mark on the barrel, it simply means the barrel has been replaced.

Do the serial numbers on the barrel match the serial number on the frame? And even if they do, it doesn't always mean the two have always been together since this can be faked.

Another thing to check would be to look for the small groove cut out on the front of the receiver to accommodate the adjustable rear sight. If that groove is not there, it probably means someone took a standard P-08 and simply put an LP-08 barrel on it.

So it would not be unusual to be lacking the witness mark if it is a parts gun.

Are you able to post pictures?

mrerick · 05-16-2010, 07:52 PM

Hi Ron,

I don't think that this is a replacement barrel situation.

Everything matches. The exact typography seriphs and type structure (including the "k") match on the barrel and front frame strap stamping.

All have halos.

The groove is present in the receiver. (Interestingly, I have a 1917 Erfurt police rework that also has the groove.)

Pictures (Serial number digits deleted):

Marc

George Anderson · 05-16-2010, 08:47 PM

Original barrel. Not a problem.

mrerick · 05-17-2010, 09:09 AM

I'm still curious... Is it unusual to see an artillery without a witness mark on the barrel?

Marc

Mauser720 · 05-17-2010, 09:26 AM

Marc -

I only have two LP-08s so I am not an "expert" by any means.

However, in looking closely at the third photograph down from the top in your series of pictures it appears to me that the mark does indeed extend slightly into the flange of the barrel. It is very slight, but it does appear to be there. I think if you were to look at this area under magnification you will see that the barrel is actually witness marked, albeit only slightly.

So the barrel is witness marked and as George Anderson has pointed out it is the original barrel.

To me it looks like you've got a nice one. Congratulations.

Norme · 05-17-2010, 09:36 AM

Hi Marc, For what its worth, my three Artilleries have barrel witness marks, but all three are lightly struck. Your receiver seems to be slightly proud of the barrel flange, and the punch may not have been struck with sufficent force to reach the barrel. Regards, Norm

mrerick · 05-17-2010, 07:59 PM

I took a very close look at the mark, and it looks like an original witness mark on the receiver was re-struck leaving the final mark on the receiver.

The receiver is about 1mm higher than the barrel, and the witness mark strike compressed the metal down against the barrel, but not into the barrel metal.

As mentioned above, most likely a "too light" strike...

Thanks again for looking and the help!

Marc

Dwight Gruber · 05-19-2010, 07:57 PM

Excellent observation and analysis of witness marks.

--Dwight

05-16-2010, 01:53 PM	#1
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	LP-08 Witness Mark Missing Hi, I was recently lucky enough to purchase my first Artillery Luger LP-08. It's a DWM from 1917 in the "k" block and appears in original finish with all correct numbered parts. There are halos around the stamped serial numbers on the barrel, front frame and left side of the receiver. There is a witness mark on the receiver frame, but no witness mark on the barrel itself. As I have read on the forums that it's most likely that Erfurt manufactured the barrels on DWM LP-08s, and that they were hand fitted (the numbers on the barrel under the rear sight base are consistent with other reports), I'm curious if the lack of a barrel witness mark is unusual. Marc

05-16-2010, 04:53 PM	#2
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Well, I would suspect that if there is no witness mark on the barrel, it simply means the barrel has been replaced. Do the serial numbers on the barrel match the serial number on the frame? And even if they do, it doesn't always mean the two have always been together since this can be faked. Another thing to check would be to look for the small groove cut out on the front of the receiver to accommodate the adjustable rear sight. If that groove is not there, it probably means someone took a standard P-08 and simply put an LP-08 barrel on it. So it would not be unusual to be lacking the witness mark if it is a parts gun. Are you able to post pictures? __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

05-17-2010, 09:26 AM	#6
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Marc - I only have two LP-08s so I am not an "expert" by any means. However, in looking closely at the third photograph down from the top in your series of pictures it appears to me that the mark does indeed extend slightly into the flange of the barrel. It is very slight, but it does appear to be there. I think if you were to look at this area under magnification you will see that the barrel is actually witness marked, albeit only slightly. So the barrel is witness marked and as George Anderson has pointed out it is the original barrel. To me it looks like you've got a nice one. Congratulations. __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

05-16-2010, 07:52 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Ron, I don't think that this is a replacement barrel situation. Everything matches. The exact typography seriphs and type structure (including the "k") match on the barrel and front frame strap stamping. All have halos. The groove is present in the receiver. (Interestingly, I have a 1917 Erfurt police rework that also has the groove.) Pictures (Serial number digits deleted): Marc

05-16-2010, 08:47 PM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Original barrel. Not a problem.

05-17-2010, 09:09 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I'm still curious... Is it unusual to see an artillery without a witness mark on the barrel? Marc

05-17-2010, 09:36 AM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Marc, For what its worth, my three Artilleries have barrel witness marks, but all three are lightly struck. Your receiver seems to be slightly proud of the barrel flange, and the punch may not have been struck with sufficent force to reach the barrel. Regards, Norm

05-17-2010, 07:59 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I took a very close look at the mark, and it looks like an original witness mark on the receiver was re-struck leaving the final mark on the receiver. The receiver is about 1mm higher than the barrel, and the witness mark strike compressed the metal down against the barrel, but not into the barrel metal. As mentioned above, most likely a "too light" strike... Thanks again for looking and the help! Marc

05-19-2010, 07:57 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Excellent observation and analysis of witness marks. --Dwight