New era Iron Cross look like this

alvin · 01-06-2010, 09:31 AM

Heard that Germany restored issuing Iron Cross in 2009 (stopped since 1945). New era version looks like this -- look at this color and shape

sheepherder · 01-06-2010, 09:50 AM

Beautiful looking medal and ribbon!

Are there different levels of achievement???

I've always admired the Maltese cross...Even the years when I shot Expert, I'd rather wear my Sharpshooter's badge...(Sharpshooter had the Maltese cross; Expert was a laurel wreath)...

Norme · 01-06-2010, 09:58 AM

I'm surprised that the new Iron Cross has been given a gold wash. The Germans have always had a thing about iron, remember Bismark's "blood and iron"?

alvin · 01-06-2010, 10:01 AM

The report did not say the detail, only mentioned four medals were issued to German troop serving in Afganistan.

The color of this uniform is also..... "regressed", IMO.

alanint · 01-06-2010, 10:05 AM

What a chintzy looking Parachute Badge!!!

The Germans know better than this! Since it appears to have a crown at the top, I can only hope that this award was presented by some other country....

suum cuique · 01-06-2010, 12:34 PM

THis is NOT the new iron cross.
They considered to reissue the "Iron cross", but this request was denied.
The iron cross is not political correct, because it is a symbol of war, aggression bla-bla-bla.
The request to reissue was therefore officially rejected.
The other thing is: They only issued the Iron cross during war time.
1813, 1914, 1939. Today, there is no official war. Even the "war on terrorismn" in Afghanistan is no war, it is more likely a
"reconstruction & protection job" or a police action.
(The word Police Action was used in the beginnig of the Korean conflict, too)
The German politicians wants to be 100% politial correct.
The German officials do avoid the word "war".
As a compromise the German military added another "class" to the already existing service medal. That's it.
It is not intended to give this new medal to a soldier for typical acts of heroismn, like wasting an enemy machine gun position,etc.
(Because this medal will not receive somebody for killing another human)

It is not intended to award "killing".
It is a "Medal Of Honor" for soldiers sent out to a war called Police action or reconstruction help by a pacifistic Goverment.
Did you guys know the if a German soldier kills somebody in his line of duty, that the District Attorny in Potsdam(Germany) has automaticly to investigate EVERY case?
Rediculous-but true

Some pics:
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...cke-50029.html

newluger · 01-06-2010, 05:49 PM

Suum,
That's interesting information. Thanks for telling us.

The Korean war was a Police Action.

Newluger

Sieger · 01-06-2010, 08:26 PM

When they lost WWII, they really "lost it"!

Sieger

Ron Wood · 01-06-2010, 08:55 PM

Sieger,
WWII was a long time ago and it has often been said the history is written by the victors. The German leadership in WWII was an atrocity, but that does not necessarily reflect on present day Germany, any more than the present US leadership is a measure of the hearts and minds of many of us. We have some very knowledgeable and honorable German members of the forum and perhaps we should consider only what is right or wrong with the current "politically correct" fervor that grips many nations and not dwell upon the past. I would really hate to have the insensitivity and decisions of our current leadership be attributed to all US citizens because of past victories won by our forefathers.

Sieger · 01-06-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Sieger,
WWII was a long time ago and it has often been said the history is written by the victors. The German leadership in WWII was an atrocity, but that does not necessarily reflect on present day Germany, any more than the present US leadership is a measure of the hearts and minds of many of us. We have some very knowledgeable and honorable German members of the forum and perhaps we should consider only what is right or wrong with the current "politically correct" fervor that grips many nations and not dwell upon the past. I would really hate to have the insensitivity and decisions of our current leadership be attributed to all US citizens because of past victories won by our forefathers.

Ron:

Nur Militarismus hab ich gedacht.

Sieger

alvin · 01-06-2010, 10:03 PM

wikipedia has some info on Bundeswehr's honor grades. The symbol on the ribbon of this particular one in the topic is the highest. "Cross of Honour for Bravery, for valor beyond the call of duty"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge_o...the_Bundeswehr

According to Wiki, West Germany issued Iron Crosses with oak leaf to replace those WWII crosses with Swastika in 1957. So, the cross itself was still honored.

alanint · 01-06-2010, 11:25 PM

Also, anybody still in the military who won a Nazi era Iron Cross is still authorized to wear the original.
I'll never forget being at the Casino in Monaco and looking over to see a silvered old gent in a tux wearing the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves. I wish I had gone over to find out who he was
I have also had in my hands the highest Ritter Kreutz ever awarded. This was when I met Hans Ulrich Rudel in Bolivia in 1980.

suum cuique · 01-07-2010, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Also, anybody still in the military who won a Nazi era Iron Cross is still authorized to wear the original.
I'll never forget being at the Casino in Monaco and looking over to see a silvered old gent in a tux wearing the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves. I wish I had gone over to find out who he was
I have also had in my hands the highest Ritter Kreutz ever awarded. This was when I met Hans Ulrich Rudel in Bolivia in 1980.

It is illegal in Germany to display anything with a swastika in public. Like medals, uniforms, flags, steel helmets, daggers and so on. (Exceptions are old postal stamps, coins and some pictures on/in books. § 86 ff StGB. (German criminal code).
If somebody would wear the original version of an Iron Cross, Ritterkreuz or another medal, he would face criminal charges.
In 1957 came up a new medal regulation law that only allows to wear a WW2 era medal (if awarded) in the version of 1957. (Without a swastica).
Of course, if you met a vet in Monaco, Spain or somewhere else, there the German criminal code / §86 StGB does not apply.
The § 86 StGB does even cover much more.
It is illegal to play some songs, marches etc. used by Nazi organisations til 1945.
AN EXEMPLE: If somebody in Germany would import (internet-order ) a CD with such kind of music and the customs finds this out, he would get alot of touble.

Sieger · 01-07-2010, 12:57 PM

Andy:

Since German military officers could not belong to any political party, until after 1945 (SS excepted), but yet, took a personal oath of loyalty, unto the death, to Adolph Hitler, it seems to me that the better solution would have been to have wiped the slate clean of all decoration received during the period.

The simple removal of the symbol of the NSDAP, from an award granted by it, seem only a half measure.

Sieger

MikeP · 01-07-2010, 03:43 PM

To an extent you still got to separate the war from the warrior.

There were a lot of heroic acts that did not involve atrocities or crimes.

I am not a revisionist or German apologist.
My grandfathers went to France in 1917 and my father toured Europe with the 506th PIR.

As a 2 tour VN combat vet I am a bit sensitive to dispersions cast at veterans in a broad manner.
A lot of heroic stuff involves keeping your buddies alive.

I understand where this gets fuzzy involving Germans, but it can't be simply dismissed.
WW2 vets are thinning out, so you probably won't get many complaints.

Germany does have two huge strikes against it in the last century, so we can't dismiss the fact that some consider it in need of military supervision.

My 2 pfennigs, anyways.

Mike Jones · 01-07-2010, 03:44 PM

Don't forget the Iron Cross of 1870.

Mike

Norme · 01-07-2010, 03:55 PM

I think the Germans, to their credit, are simply trying to remove the Swastika from the Iron Cross. One is an honorable medal for bravery, and the other was the Nazi Party logo.

suum cuique · 01-07-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

I think the Germans, to their credit, are simply trying to remove the Swastika from the Iron Cross. One is an honorable medal for bravery, and the other was the Nazi Party logo.

The whole idea with this new level of already existing medal was to create a "new medal" without getting connected to the history. Therefore they did not reissue the iron cross.
There was even a discussion to remove the "iron cross" symbol on tanks and aircrafts.
When the recipiants of the new medal gots the medal handed out, they did this in a civilian ceremony to avoid any "touch" of militarismn.
For many German soldiers, this new medal has no special meaning, it is nothing more as a medal like you receive for rescueing a person from drowning.
Alot of them are really pissed that their government rejected the reissue of the iron cross, which is an international well known medal.
But the social status of a soldier in Germany today is almost like the status soldiers had when they came home from Nam.
Some do not even wear their uniform after duty, they change their cloth immediately after they come home from "work".
If they get killed, many people say: "Well, nobody forced them to go, they went over there voluntarily, just leave the Afghans alone".

01-06-2010, 09:31 AM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	New era Iron Cross look like this Heard that Germany restored issuing Iron Cross in 2009 (stopped since 1945). New era version looks like this -- look at this color and shape Attached Images

01-06-2010, 10:01 AM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The report did not say the detail, only mentioned four medals were issued to German troop serving in Afganistan. The color of this uniform is also..... "regressed", IMO. Attached Images

01-06-2010, 12:34 PM	#6
suum cuique User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: MD / Currently about 9000 klicks east of the Potomac Posts: 497 Thanks: 100 Thanked 47 Times in 35 Posts	THis is NOT the new iron cross. They considered to reissue the "Iron cross", but this request was denied. The iron cross is not political correct, because it is a symbol of war, aggression bla-bla-bla. The request to reissue was therefore officially rejected. The other thing is: They only issued the Iron cross during war time. 1813, 1914, 1939. Today, there is no official war. Even the "war on terrorismn" in Afghanistan is no war, it is more likely a "reconstruction & protection job" or a police action. (The word Police Action was used in the beginnig of the Korean conflict, too) The German politicians wants to be 100% politial correct. The German officials do avoid the word "war". As a compromise the German military added another "class" to the already existing service medal. That's it. It is not intended to give this new medal to a soldier for typical acts of heroismn, like wasting an enemy machine gun position,etc. (Because this medal will not receive somebody for killing another human) It is not intended to award "killing". It is a "Medal Of Honor" for soldiers sent out to a war called Police action or reconstruction help by a pacifistic Goverment. Did you guys know the if a German soldier kills somebody in his line of duty, that the District Attorny in Potsdam(Germany) has automaticly to investigate EVERY case? Rediculous-but true Some pics: http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fo...cke-50029.html __________________ Regards, Andy There's No Place Like Home (Wizard Of Oz)

01-06-2010, 08:55 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Sieger, WWII was a long time ago and it has often been said the history is written by the victors. The German leadership in WWII was an atrocity, but that does not necessarily reflect on present day Germany, any more than the present US leadership is a measure of the hearts and minds of many of us. We have some very knowledgeable and honorable German members of the forum and perhaps we should consider only what is right or wrong with the current "politically correct" fervor that grips many nations and not dwell upon the past. I would really hate to have the insensitivity and decisions of our current leadership be attributed to all US citizens because of past victories won by our forefathers. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-06-2010, 09:50 AM	#2
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Beautiful looking medal and ribbon! Are there different levels of achievement??? I've always admired the Maltese cross...Even the years when I shot Expert, I'd rather wear my Sharpshooter's badge...(Sharpshooter had the Maltese cross; Expert was a laurel wreath)...

01-06-2010, 09:58 AM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	I'm surprised that the new Iron Cross has been given a gold wash. The Germans have always had a thing about iron, remember Bismark's "blood and iron"?

01-06-2010, 10:05 AM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	What a chintzy looking Parachute Badge!!! The Germans know better than this! Since it appears to have a crown at the top, I can only hope that this award was presented by some other country....

01-06-2010, 05:49 PM	#7
newluger User Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Franklin Tennessee Posts: 119 Thanks: 22 Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts	Suum, That's interesting information. Thanks for telling us. The Korean war was a Police Action. Newluger

01-06-2010, 08:26 PM	#8
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	When they lost WWII, they really "lost it"! Sieger

01-06-2010, 10:03 PM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	wikipedia has some info on Bundeswehr's honor grades. The symbol on the ribbon of this particular one in the topic is the highest. "Cross of Honour for Bravery, for valor beyond the call of duty" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badge_o...the_Bundeswehr According to Wiki, West Germany issued Iron Crosses with oak leaf to replace those WWII crosses with Swastika in 1957. So, the cross itself was still honored.

01-06-2010, 11:25 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Also, anybody still in the military who won a Nazi era Iron Cross is still authorized to wear the original. I'll never forget being at the Casino in Monaco and looking over to see a silvered old gent in a tux wearing the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves. I wish I had gone over to find out who he was I have also had in my hands the highest Ritter Kreutz ever awarded. This was when I met Hans Ulrich Rudel in Bolivia in 1980.

01-07-2010, 12:57 PM	#14
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Andy: Since German military officers could not belong to any political party, until after 1945 (SS excepted), but yet, took a personal oath of loyalty, unto the death, to Adolph Hitler, it seems to me that the better solution would have been to have wiped the slate clean of all decoration received during the period. The simple removal of the symbol of the NSDAP, from an award granted by it, seem only a half measure. Sieger

01-07-2010, 03:43 PM	#15
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	To an extent you still got to separate the war from the warrior. There were a lot of heroic acts that did not involve atrocities or crimes. I am not a revisionist or German apologist. My grandfathers went to France in 1917 and my father toured Europe with the 506th PIR. As a 2 tour VN combat vet I am a bit sensitive to dispersions cast at veterans in a broad manner. A lot of heroic stuff involves keeping your buddies alive. I understand where this gets fuzzy involving Germans, but it can't be simply dismissed. WW2 vets are thinning out, so you probably won't get many complaints. Germany does have two huge strikes against it in the last century, so we can't dismiss the fact that some consider it in need of military supervision. My 2 pfennigs, anyways.

01-07-2010, 03:44 PM	#16
Mike Jones User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Don't forget the Iron Cross of 1870. Mike

01-07-2010, 03:55 PM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	I think the Germans, to their credit, are simply trying to remove the Swastika from the Iron Cross. One is an honorable medal for bravery, and the other was the Nazi Party logo.