Shooting fun with a prewar small ring

alvin · 11-09-2009, 05:28 PM

Date -- Nov 7, 2009

Gun -- 1914 Small Ring. Not a pure shooter, but it does not have a matching stock, so it's a "half shooter" for this variation.

Stance -- Stand with stock attached

Ammo -- PRVI 7,63 Mauser

Target -- The diameter of the black circle on the paper is 8". And two empty coke cans.

Distance -- 50 yards

alvin · 11-14-2009, 05:26 PM

Obviously, not many people shooting "collectible" guns. That's by definition, you paid $$ and you define it.

25 yard carbine mode shooting on this raining day. Top can was shot by my sister, bottom one was mine. When empty can was hit by a bullet, it could fly up 10 feet onto the hill and then roll down. Lots of fun.

Same weapon, same ammo brand.

Vlim · 11-14-2009, 05:35 PM

Alvin,

Nice shooter and nice shooting

But may I suggest that next time you use Busch or Budweiser beer cans. They are more appropriate as one of the former DWM managers married into the American Busch family (Baron Paul von Gontard married Clara Busch).

alvin · 11-14-2009, 05:51 PM

Vlim thanks for the suggestion. My spouse usually buys Michael L.... (? sorry, cannot remeber it's Lob, or Lobe, or...) Light which is packaged in glass bottle..... too messy for range. I will try Budweiser can next time

Shot all my PRVI out. Still have DWM 403 but those are not for shooting. Need to find more PRVI in the next gun show. DWM clips worked well. Through some practice, now I can load without clip easily and quickly as well. All trick is on using thumb to control bolt position while holding the gun in the same that hand. It took a while to get used to it. Learn from movie. Works.

====

[Edit] Accumulatively, I have shot 400 rounds from it. This one had been stored in an old man's collection for fifty years without shooting. It had mint bore when I got it. No mulfunction of any kind so far. It's also a good oppertunity for me to see when it will show its first malfunction with all original parts. When it arrives 1000 rounds, I will post another pix showing gun condition changes.

alvin · 12-12-2009, 07:27 PM

Visited range early in the morning and fired 50 rounds in -20F environment. Planned to shoot 100 but I was almost frozen there so terminated the session early. In this session, I met the first malfunction. The 10th round (the 510th round if counted from the 'beginning') did not feed. It's the last round in the magazine, the bolt did not push the cartridge into the chamber and the round blocked the bolt almost fully open. Manully pulled back the bolt, released it, then, the round was chambered properly.

After 550 rounds, there are three visible changes on the gun.

(1) First, a tiny dimple has been built up behind the bolt stop on the receiver. See pix. Only discoloration is visible, but there is a tiny dimple which does not exist before round 1.

(2) Second, the bore is hard to be called mint anymore, now I can see scratches on the grooves. Only non-corrosive FMJ ammo has been used, no other erosion so far. See pix. Now, it can only be classified as excellent bore.

(3) Third, the ejected cases falled down the gun during firing so many times, a few minor scratches have been built around the ejection port area. The scratches did not cut through the blue, but visible, and not erasable via gun cleaning oil.

saab-bob · 12-12-2009, 09:31 PM

Alvin

I also shoot my pre-war small ring commercial.I shoot PRIV or Fiocchi 30 Mauser.

A very important item with these guns,is that you need to replace all the the springs.
That dimple on the frame behind the bolt stop shows the recoil spring is weak.It is allowing the bolt to slam against the bolt stop to hard.If this continues the bolt stop will break and you will have the bolt bang your forehead. Very uncomfortable.
A weak magazine spring could also give feeding problems,as you describe.

You also need to check to make sure the correct firing pin is installed. You need the firing pin spring to be screwed on to the firing pin. Mine had a incorrect replacement firing pin where the spring was not attached.The loose firing pin spring and recoil spring interfered with each other causing a slam fire out of battery.Not good.

These are fun guns to shot,but all of them are at least 60 years old. So they need plenty of TLC.

Remember the 30 Mauser was the first magnum pistol cartridge of its day,so the standard loads are pretty hot.

Be careful out there!

Bob

alvin · 12-12-2009, 10:10 PM

Bob, thanks for the advice.

At the beginning, I have made up my mind -- even I sacrifice this gun, I
won't replace any spring on it. Please don't take me wrong, it's not because
I don't take the advice. The purpose of shooting is not only for fun, I
also would like to find (1) using regular 7,63 ammo (so far ~500 rounds
PRVI, 10 round DWM 403), would that dimple be created? (2) what's the average
malfunction rate on a gun correct down to the springs.

There are a few things found or partially verified so far.

(a) Prewar small ring's main spring is weaker than that of 1930. Their recoil
springs are almost the same strength. I have not measured quantitatively
yet, but I bet that's the case, because that also match Schnellfeuer's parts
naming "generation" (so even Westinger should have same strength recoil
spring, part #10458).

Will post measured numerical values after I find a measuring tool.

Why didn't Mauser use stronger recoil spring....it's not documented
anywhere. One reason that I can think of -- stronger recoil spring affects
ammo loading from the clip.

(b) If I assume dimple is normal on pre-1930 variations, I could understand
why did Mauser changed that bolt stop hole position on 1930. Around 1,000
rounds were fired from a 1930, no dimple with original springs. I could
think two reasons: strong main spring on 1930, and 1930's specific bolt stop
hole position.

Otherwise, it's hard to understand why did they change the position of this
hole on 1930. One problem of Mauser patent is that they explained how it
functions, but never explain "why did I make this change".....

(c) The average malfunction rate on an Interarms Walther P1 was 412 rounds,
which I fired ~5000 rounds. Under same shooting and maintenance condition,
so far this prewar performs almost same as the P1. Of course, total volume
is important, so it's still too early to tell.

saab-bob · 12-13-2009, 01:58 AM

Alvin

So you are trying to understand why Mauser made certain design changes to the C96 over its 30+ years of production,by shooting a collectible pistol to possible destruction?

With all due respect,I do not believe this testing regime will yield any useful data,for the following reasons.

1-metal changes over time. That pistol is almost 100 years old. It has gone thru thousands of heating and cooling cycles.This causes the metal to become more brittle and loose its ductility.So that gun does not now have the same metal properties as when it was made.

2-Springs also age. All the springs in a C96 are under constant tension. Over time those springs lose their tension and become softer.

So you are now testing a gun where the springs and the metal are not at original factory specs.
Yet you are using new factory ammo loaded to original pressures.

If that bolt breaks free and flies back and hits you,you could be injured.

Take care, we want you around for awhile!

Bob

alvin · 12-13-2009, 08:21 AM

Steel is unlike vegetable which just putting it aside and it will be rotten easily. Gun degrades very very slowly, but it cannot have a pre-exist-condition for usage decades later, that's true. So the problem is not 100 years, the problem is unknown pre-exist-condition, which I had to take some risk. That's similar to health insurance or life insurance requires a physical condition report before enroll a customer, but I don't have that report for an old gun before shooting except visual inspection via nake eyes, which is not very reliable -- there could be pre-exist hidden damage. Nevertheless, so far so good though.

If a watch was built 100 years ago and it is in good shape, it still runs. I have seen numerous examples. Another more relevant example is 1911. US Army used many 1911 that had been stocked for decades as quality control pistol in 1980s pistol trials, and all of them perform well, even better than most newly made ones that joined the test.

Regarding spring's factory spec.... not documented. But I will track this one and measure quantitatively from some guns which come from independent sources.

===

[Edit] Some Mauser variations are very hard to find replacement. Not including this one though. Decades later, it may become very rare, but not today. On the market, one like this without correct stock is around 1400 - 1800, equivalent of 5 Yugo SKS

So the risk is not huge.

Vlim · 12-13-2009, 11:39 AM

Alvin,

One of the main reasons why you see a number of design changes (mostly improvements) after 1930 is basically due to one man: August Weiss.

He transferred from DWM to Mauser in 1930 and became foreman of pistol production, so not only for the Parabellum but also for Mauser's own pistols, the pockets and the C96. His thoughts on the quality of Mauser pistols were not too good initially and he probably used his position and experience to improve the quality and safety of the pistols from 1930 onwards.

11-14-2009, 05:26 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Obviously, not many people shooting "collectible" guns. That's by definition, you paid $$ and you define it. 25 yard carbine mode shooting on this raining day. Top can was shot by my sister, bottom one was mine. When empty can was hit by a bullet, it could fly up 10 feet onto the hill and then roll down. Lots of fun. Same weapon, same ammo brand. Attached Thumbnails

12-12-2009, 07:27 PM	#5
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Visited range early in the morning and fired 50 rounds in -20F environment. Planned to shoot 100 but I was almost frozen there so terminated the session early. In this session, I met the first malfunction. The 10th round (the 510th round if counted from the 'beginning') did not feed. It's the last round in the magazine, the bolt did not push the cartridge into the chamber and the round blocked the bolt almost fully open. Manully pulled back the bolt, released it, then, the round was chambered properly. After 550 rounds, there are three visible changes on the gun. (1) First, a tiny dimple has been built up behind the bolt stop on the receiver. See pix. Only discoloration is visible, but there is a tiny dimple which does not exist before round 1. (2) Second, the bore is hard to be called mint anymore, now I can see scratches on the grooves. Only non-corrosive FMJ ammo has been used, no other erosion so far. See pix. Now, it can only be classified as excellent bore. (3) Third, the ejected cases falled down the gun during firing so many times, a few minor scratches have been built around the ejection port area. The scratches did not cut through the blue, but visible, and not erasable via gun cleaning oil. Attached Thumbnails

12-12-2009, 09:31 PM	#6
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alvin I also shoot my pre-war small ring commercial.I shoot PRIV or Fiocchi 30 Mauser. A very important item with these guns,is that you need to replace all the the springs. That dimple on the frame behind the bolt stop shows the recoil spring is weak.It is allowing the bolt to slam against the bolt stop to hard.If this continues the bolt stop will break and you will have the bolt bang your forehead. Very uncomfortable. A weak magazine spring could also give feeding problems,as you describe. You also need to check to make sure the correct firing pin is installed. You need the firing pin spring to be screwed on to the firing pin. Mine had a incorrect replacement firing pin where the spring was not attached.The loose firing pin spring and recoil spring interfered with each other causing a slam fire out of battery.Not good. These are fun guns to shot,but all of them are at least 60 years old. So they need plenty of TLC. Remember the 30 Mauser was the first magnum pistol cartridge of its day,so the standard loads are pretty hot. Be careful out there! Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

12-13-2009, 01:58 AM	#8
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alvin So you are trying to understand why Mauser made certain design changes to the C96 over its 30+ years of production,by shooting a collectible pistol to possible destruction? With all due respect,I do not believe this testing regime will yield any useful data,for the following reasons. 1-metal changes over time. That pistol is almost 100 years old. It has gone thru thousands of heating and cooling cycles.This causes the metal to become more brittle and loose its ductility.So that gun does not now have the same metal properties as when it was made. 2-Springs also age. All the springs in a C96 are under constant tension. Over time those springs lose their tension and become softer. So you are now testing a gun where the springs and the metal are not at original factory specs. Yet you are using new factory ammo loaded to original pressures. If that bolt breaks free and flies back and hits you,you could be injured. Take care, we want you around for awhile! Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

11-09-2009, 05:28 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Shooting fun with a prewar small ring Date -- Nov 7, 2009 Gun -- 1914 Small Ring. Not a pure shooter, but it does not have a matching stock, so it's a "half shooter" for this variation. Stance -- Stand with stock attached Ammo -- PRVI 7,63 Mauser Target -- The diameter of the black circle on the paper is 8". And two empty coke cans. Distance -- 50 yards Attached Thumbnails

11-14-2009, 05:35 PM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Alvin, Nice shooter and nice shooting But may I suggest that next time you use Busch or Budweiser beer cans. They are more appropriate as one of the former DWM managers married into the American Busch family (Baron Paul von Gontard married Clara Busch).

11-14-2009, 05:51 PM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Vlim thanks for the suggestion. My spouse usually buys Michael L.... (? sorry, cannot remeber it's Lob, or Lobe, or...) Light which is packaged in glass bottle..... too messy for range. I will try Budweiser can next time Shot all my PRVI out. Still have DWM 403 but those are not for shooting. Need to find more PRVI in the next gun show. DWM clips worked well. Through some practice, now I can load without clip easily and quickly as well. All trick is on using thumb to control bolt position while holding the gun in the same that hand. It took a while to get used to it. Learn from movie. Works. ==== [Edit] Accumulatively, I have shot 400 rounds from it. This one had been stored in an old man's collection for fifty years without shooting. It had mint bore when I got it. No mulfunction of any kind so far. It's also a good oppertunity for me to see when it will show its first malfunction with all original parts. When it arrives 1000 rounds, I will post another pix showing gun condition changes.

12-12-2009, 10:10 PM	#7
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Bob, thanks for the advice. At the beginning, I have made up my mind -- even I sacrifice this gun, I won't replace any spring on it. Please don't take me wrong, it's not because I don't take the advice. The purpose of shooting is not only for fun, I also would like to find (1) using regular 7,63 ammo (so far ~500 rounds PRVI, 10 round DWM 403), would that dimple be created? (2) what's the average malfunction rate on a gun correct down to the springs. There are a few things found or partially verified so far. (a) Prewar small ring's main spring is weaker than that of 1930. Their recoil springs are almost the same strength. I have not measured quantitatively yet, but I bet that's the case, because that also match Schnellfeuer's parts naming "generation" (so even Westinger should have same strength recoil spring, part #10458). Will post measured numerical values after I find a measuring tool. Why didn't Mauser use stronger recoil spring....it's not documented anywhere. One reason that I can think of -- stronger recoil spring affects ammo loading from the clip. (b) If I assume dimple is normal on pre-1930 variations, I could understand why did Mauser changed that bolt stop hole position on 1930. Around 1,000 rounds were fired from a 1930, no dimple with original springs. I could think two reasons: strong main spring on 1930, and 1930's specific bolt stop hole position. Otherwise, it's hard to understand why did they change the position of this hole on 1930. One problem of Mauser patent is that they explained how it functions, but never explain "why did I make this change"..... (c) The average malfunction rate on an Interarms Walther P1 was 412 rounds, which I fired ~5000 rounds. Under same shooting and maintenance condition, so far this prewar performs almost same as the P1. Of course, total volume is important, so it's still too early to tell.

12-13-2009, 08:21 AM	#9
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Steel is unlike vegetable which just putting it aside and it will be rotten easily. Gun degrades very very slowly, but it cannot have a pre-exist-condition for usage decades later, that's true. So the problem is not 100 years, the problem is unknown pre-exist-condition, which I had to take some risk. That's similar to health insurance or life insurance requires a physical condition report before enroll a customer, but I don't have that report for an old gun before shooting except visual inspection via nake eyes, which is not very reliable -- there could be pre-exist hidden damage. Nevertheless, so far so good though. If a watch was built 100 years ago and it is in good shape, it still runs. I have seen numerous examples. Another more relevant example is 1911. US Army used many 1911 that had been stocked for decades as quality control pistol in 1980s pistol trials, and all of them perform well, even better than most newly made ones that joined the test. Regarding spring's factory spec.... not documented. But I will track this one and measure quantitatively from some guns which come from independent sources. === [Edit] Some Mauser variations are very hard to find replacement. Not including this one though. Decades later, it may become very rare, but not today. On the market, one like this without correct stock is around 1400 - 1800, equivalent of 5 Yugo SKS So the risk is not huge.

12-13-2009, 11:39 AM	#10
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Alvin, One of the main reasons why you see a number of design changes (mostly improvements) after 1930 is basically due to one man: August Weiss. He transferred from DWM to Mauser in 1930 and became foreman of pistol production, so not only for the Parabellum but also for Mauser's own pistols, the pockets and the C96. His thoughts on the quality of Mauser pistols were not too good initially and he probably used his position and experience to improve the quality and safety of the pistols from 1930 onwards.