Waffenamt Stamp

Marvin · 12-17-2001, 04:32 PM

Has anyone observed a Waffenamt Stamp, Eagle/623 stamped on the barrel of a Luger? In Walter's book "Luger" he does not this stamp, but with reservation as it's ever been stamped on a Luger barrel. He notes that possibly the barrel was made at Steyr Plant. I know that the inspector with the Eagle/623 was located at the Steyr Plant and stamped this on K98k rifles, some Hi-Power pistols, and holsters at a fabricator in Viennia.

I was piqued by this stamp on a Luger barrel as I have never seen or heard of this before. Could this be a stamp placed on a German Depot repaired pistol? I hope someone may know the answers.

Marvin

Uncle Mike · 12-17-2001, 05:34 PM

Hi Marvin, John Walter states that it may be a poorly struck '655' the Mauser code but has been reported as Steyr in the early 1940's and as you say on barrels.He dosen't seem to keen on the Steyr theory.Regards MC

Marvin · 12-17-2001, 05:45 PM

Mike,

You are correct he states it may be a poorly struck E/655, but I have seen this on a barrel this weekend and it definetly is an E/623. When I first saw it, I thought it must be an E/655. but when I used a magnifying glass, it is E/623. The barrel is a replacement and appears to have the same machinging as the 1942 Mauser barrels except the radius on the front site boss. The radius is "sharper" than the 1942 Mauser barrel. I am totally stumped on this. I wonder if the Luger could have been rebarreled at Steyr and checked by the inspector with the E/623 and approved for service? If it is a Mauser replacement barrel, I wonder why there is no "42" or "S/42" code? maybe it is a Mauser barrel and by 1941/42, they did not stamp a replacement code on the part. I appreciate your comments, and I hope others may have some knowledge of this.

Marvin

12-17-2001, 06:39 PM

Hi Marvin, I have long been aware of Luger barrels bearing this Wa number. The two obvious explainations (although not necessarily correct!) is that the barrels were sub-contracted by Mauser (who generally states that it did not subcontract parts....but we know that they in fact did for K98k's at least) or that it is a period replacement made by Styer and maybe or maybe not actually installed there. I would say also look at the exact style and size of barrel serial number to see if Mauser dies were used, also did it bear the land dia. markings? Did the barrel bear a final firing proof? Sorry I really don't for sure the story on these but I find them interesting.

Thor · 12-17-2001, 08:02 PM

Marvin, found this in a Luger book. This proof is listed as a "1940 MAUSER/STEYR Bavarian Werke barrel proof. MAUSER subcontracted to STEYR for Luger parts. The Number "623" is a STEYR Waffenment code. Note: Caution should be utilized if one discovers this proof, as only 3 are known to exist" The is a quote from the book and I would alert you to try and confirm if you have a forgery or the real deal. Does the marking have the "HALO" affect talked about before that indicates it was stamped after bluing? Interesting.....for sure! Good luck and let us know what the opinions are, I think this would be one that an expert might need to look at "in hand" to verify for sure, was the price reasonable? Thor

Marvin · 12-17-2001, 08:09 PM

BCC,

OK, I have answers to your questions as I did a complete examination of the pistol.

1. Mauser stamps appear to have been used. They are the same height and style as on the original frame.

2. The land diameter is not stamped on the barrel.

3. I could not find any final test proof on the barrel.

The Eagle/623 was stamped before the serial number was stamped on the barrel as the serial numbers just touch the bottom of the "623". To add a little more to the story, the receiver is a "42" stamped replacement part with the serial number stamped in the correct location, and the "42" is stamped in small numbers just in front of the serial number. The receiver is dated 1940.

This is an odd piece I have never seen or heard of before. From the inspectors stamps inside the frame, the frame appears to be a 1940 also. I am at a loss on this one and I appreciate all the help anyone can provide.

Marvin

Marvin · 12-17-2001, 08:13 PM

Ted,

Thanks for the additional information! There are only 3 known to exist??? Hey, if this turns out to be correct, my friend will be very happy! I will have the pistol in hand tomorrow again and i will verify if the stamp was before or after bluing. I will keep this to myself until I get more information. Thanks for the help.

Marvin

SteveM · 12-17-2001, 08:25 PM

Similar to this?

SteveM

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Dsc00104.jpg

Marvin · 12-17-2001, 08:48 PM

Steve,

If memory serves me correct, yes, it does look like the photo you posted. One thing I do remember is that the "2" seems to be a little lower than the "6" and the "3". Where did you get the photo of the stamp? Is this a legitimate or bogus stamp? Thanks for posting the information and if you know more, please let me know. I will have the pistol early tomorrow morning and provide any answers to question. You guys are really great to help out like this.

Marvin

12-17-2001, 11:36 PM

Marvin, I've probably had at least 6 of these E/623 inspected Steyr made armour's replacement barrels instock over the last 25 years. I've also had unused E/655 & E/63 spares and even one W/154 (G date) spare. Although, I've never seen one on a PO8 with test fire proof or with ORIGINAL serialization. Tom h

Marvin · 12-18-2001, 06:51 AM

Hello Tom,

This is the first one I have seen ever. I have also seem replacement barrels with the E/655 & E/63, but not the E/623. This one does not have any firing test proof on the barrel or the receiver and this seemed a little strange to me. The serial number stamps on the barrel do indeed match the numbers exactly on the frame.

If the barrel was the only part replaced, I would think it was a Waffenfabrik USA assembly, but since the receiver and barrel are replacements, I feel it may be a 100% German Depot rework. I know it is not impossible to get original number stamps, it does not seem logical that someone would have this set of stamps to make up something that would not bring a high dollar. The pistol is in approx. 95% condition with high edge wear and a little at the muzzle. There is wear on the front and rear gripstrap and the hump on the sideplate. From all appearances, the blue wear is consistant with being in a Luger holster.

I don't have any photos, but from my description do you think this pistol is correct? A tough question without seeing it I know. The reason for asking about this is that my friend wants to sell the pistol and he said I could have first option. When he first asked me to sell it for him, I thought it would be a standard 1940/42 pistol. I don't want to cheat him, but I do want to get it at a decent price. Assuming the pistol is correct, what would be a fair price to offer him and what would a retail price be?

Marvin

SteveM · 12-18-2001, 08:51 AM

Marvin,

This stamp is on a early C block Radom. It is a very small proof. That is why I couldn't get it any sharper resolution in the photo. It is a legit stamp..

Regards,

Steve

Marvin · 12-18-2001, 11:38 AM

Steve,

Thanks for the information. The one on the Luger is small also, but the numbers are fairly sharp. I will have to look at my Radoms and see if they have this stamp. Thanks again for posting the photo.

Marvin

12-18-2001, 07:47 PM

For what it is worth, I feel the Luger is a period original. Maybe assembled somewhat like the KU Lugers. I don't know what the "market value" is and I guess with many collectors it is not collector worthy since it is not factory original (this one does not appear to have even been assembled in a factory!). Too my way of thinking is would be more desirable than a common 1940/42 type ...but I know that I'm not the norm.

Marvin · 12-19-2001, 10:58 AM

BCC,

Thanks for the response! I felt like the Luger was a period rework and not a Waffenamt USA piece. I have also talked with several other collectors and they feel that the value is about the same as a standard 1940/42. Since the pistol is in such great condition, I did buy it for under $800. I agree with you that since it is a little unusual, it may have a little more value than a standard 1940/42, but I feel I got a decent buy and the seller was not ripped off since he was a friend. I told my friend that if it was worth more I would pay him more, but it appears we now have a deal. I still want to do more searching on the Eagle/623, it is interesting!

If anyone on the Forum has more info on the E/623, please let me know.

Marvin

Uncle Mike · 12-19-2001, 07:16 PM

Hi Marv,If your a member of NAPCA(National Automatic Pistol Collectors Ass.)why not write up a question that they will print in the magazine.If your not familiar with the Association this kind of stuff is right up their alley.Regardless keep us informed.Now you got me interested.Regards, MC.

Thor · 12-19-2001, 07:45 PM

I had sugguested that to him too MC! I am sure that will be done in next few months! Thor

Marvin · 12-20-2001, 07:50 AM

Mike,

Right On! I have started writing up a memo for the "Auto-Mag" to get more information. IT is amazing some of the resposes you get back from the membership. The only problem is the answers are a little slow in coming, but I still like the monthly newsletter that I can hold and read. Keep a lookout for the memo!

Marvin

12-17-2001, 04:32 PM	#1
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Waffenamt Stamp Has anyone observed a Waffenamt Stamp, Eagle/623 stamped on the barrel of a Luger? In Walter's book "Luger" he does not this stamp, but with reservation as it's ever been stamped on a Luger barrel. He notes that possibly the barrel was made at Steyr Plant. I know that the inspector with the Eagle/623 was located at the Steyr Plant and stamped this on K98k rifles, some Hi-Power pistols, and holsters at a fabricator in Viennia. I was piqued by this stamp on a Luger barrel as I have never seen or heard of this before. Could this be a stamp placed on a German Depot repaired pistol? I hope someone may know the answers. Marvin

12-17-2001, 05:34 PM	#2
Uncle Mike User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Hi Marvin, John Walter states that it may be a poorly struck '655' the Mauser code but has been reported as Steyr in the early 1940's and as you say on barrels.He dosen't seem to keen on the Steyr theory.Regards MC

12-17-2001, 05:45 PM	#3
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Mike, You are correct he states it may be a poorly struck E/655, but I have seen this on a barrel this weekend and it definetly is an E/623. When I first saw it, I thought it must be an E/655. but when I used a magnifying glass, it is E/623. The barrel is a replacement and appears to have the same machinging as the 1942 Mauser barrels except the radius on the front site boss. The radius is "sharper" than the 1942 Mauser barrel. I am totally stumped on this. I wonder if the Luger could have been rebarreled at Steyr and checked by the inspector with the E/623 and approved for service? If it is a Mauser replacement barrel, I wonder why there is no "42" or "S/42" code? maybe it is a Mauser barrel and by 1941/42, they did not stamp a replacement code on the part. I appreciate your comments, and I hope others may have some knowledge of this. Marvin

12-17-2001, 06:39 PM	#4
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Hi Marvin, I have long been aware of Luger barrels bearing this Wa number. The two obvious explainations (although not necessarily correct!) is that the barrels were sub-contracted by Mauser (who generally states that it did not subcontract parts....but we know that they in fact did for K98k's at least) or that it is a period replacement made by Styer and maybe or maybe not actually installed there. I would say also look at the exact style and size of barrel serial number to see if Mauser dies were used, also did it bear the land dia. markings? Did the barrel bear a final firing proof? Sorry I really don't for sure the story on these but I find them interesting.

12-17-2001, 08:02 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp-Eagle 623 Marvin, found this in a Luger book. This proof is listed as a "1940 MAUSER/STEYR Bavarian Werke barrel proof. MAUSER subcontracted to STEYR for Luger parts. The Number "623" is a STEYR Waffenment code. Note: Caution should be utilized if one discovers this proof, as only 3 are known to exist" The is a quote from the book and I would alert you to try and confirm if you have a forgery or the real deal. Does the marking have the "HALO" affect talked about before that indicates it was stamped after bluing? Interesting.....for sure! Good luck and let us know what the opinions are, I think this would be one that an expert might need to look at "in hand" to verify for sure, was the price reasonable? Thor

12-17-2001, 08:09 PM	#6
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp BCC, OK, I have answers to your questions as I did a complete examination of the pistol. 1. Mauser stamps appear to have been used. They are the same height and style as on the original frame. 2. The land diameter is not stamped on the barrel. 3. I could not find any final test proof on the barrel. The Eagle/623 was stamped before the serial number was stamped on the barrel as the serial numbers just touch the bottom of the "623". To add a little more to the story, the receiver is a "42" stamped replacement part with the serial number stamped in the correct location, and the "42" is stamped in small numbers just in front of the serial number. The receiver is dated 1940. This is an odd piece I have never seen or heard of before. From the inspectors stamps inside the frame, the frame appears to be a 1940 also. I am at a loss on this one and I appreciate all the help anyone can provide. Marvin

12-17-2001, 08:13 PM	#7
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp-Eagle 623 Ted, Thanks for the additional information! There are only 3 known to exist??? Hey, if this turns out to be correct, my friend will be very happy! I will have the pistol in hand tomorrow again and i will verify if the stamp was before or after bluing. I will keep this to myself until I get more information. Thanks for the help. Marvin

12-17-2001, 08:25 PM	#8
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Similar to this? SteveM http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Dsc00104.jpg

12-17-2001, 08:48 PM	#9
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Steve, If memory serves me correct, yes, it does look like the photo you posted. One thing I do remember is that the "2" seems to be a little lower than the "6" and the "3". Where did you get the photo of the stamp? Is this a legitimate or bogus stamp? Thanks for posting the information and if you know more, please let me know. I will have the pistol early tomorrow morning and provide any answers to question. You guys are really great to help out like this. Marvin

12-17-2001, 11:36 PM	#10
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re:Steyr made PO8 barrels Marvin, I've probably had at least 6 of these E/623 inspected Steyr made armour's replacement barrels instock over the last 25 years. I've also had unused E/655 & E/63 spares and even one W/154 (G date) spare. Although, I've never seen one on a PO8 with test fire proof or with ORIGINAL serialization. Tom h

12-18-2001, 06:51 AM	#11
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re:Steyr made PO8 barrels Hello Tom, This is the first one I have seen ever. I have also seem replacement barrels with the E/655 & E/63, but not the E/623. This one does not have any firing test proof on the barrel or the receiver and this seemed a little strange to me. The serial number stamps on the barrel do indeed match the numbers exactly on the frame. If the barrel was the only part replaced, I would think it was a Waffenfabrik USA assembly, but since the receiver and barrel are replacements, I feel it may be a 100% German Depot rework. I know it is not impossible to get original number stamps, it does not seem logical that someone would have this set of stamps to make up something that would not bring a high dollar. The pistol is in approx. 95% condition with high edge wear and a little at the muzzle. There is wear on the front and rear gripstrap and the hump on the sideplate. From all appearances, the blue wear is consistant with being in a Luger holster. I don't have any photos, but from my description do you think this pistol is correct? A tough question without seeing it I know. The reason for asking about this is that my friend wants to sell the pistol and he said I could have first option. When he first asked me to sell it for him, I thought it would be a standard 1940/42 pistol. I don't want to cheat him, but I do want to get it at a decent price. Assuming the pistol is correct, what would be a fair price to offer him and what would a retail price be? Marvin

12-18-2001, 08:51 AM	#12
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Marvin, This stamp is on a early C block Radom. It is a very small proof. That is why I couldn't get it any sharper resolution in the photo. It is a legit stamp.. Regards, Steve

12-18-2001, 11:38 AM	#13
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp Steve, Thanks for the information. The one on the Luger is small also, but the numbers are fairly sharp. I will have to look at my Radoms and see if they have this stamp. Thanks again for posting the photo. Marvin

12-18-2001, 07:47 PM	#14
BCC Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Waffenamt Stamp For what it is worth, I feel the Luger is a period original. Maybe assembled somewhat like the KU Lugers. I don't know what the "market value" is and I guess with many collectors it is not collector worthy since it is not factory original (this one does not appear to have even been assembled in a factory!). Too my way of thinking is would be more desirable than a common 1940/42 type ...but I know that I'm not the norm.

12-19-2001, 10:58 AM	#15
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Waffenamt Stamp BCC, Thanks for the response! I felt like the Luger was a period rework and not a Waffenamt USA piece. I have also talked with several other collectors and they feel that the value is about the same as a standard 1940/42. Since the pistol is in such great condition, I did buy it for under $800. I agree with you that since it is a little unusual, it may have a little more value than a standard 1940/42, but I feel I got a decent buy and the seller was not ripped off since he was a friend. I told my friend that if it was worth more I would pay him more, but it appears we now have a deal. I still want to do more searching on the Eagle/623, it is interesting! If anyone on the Forum has more info on the E/623, please let me know. Marvin

12-19-2001, 07:16 PM	#16
Uncle Mike User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A Suggestion;Napca Hi Marv,If your a member of NAPCA(National Automatic Pistol Collectors Ass.)why not write up a question that they will print in the magazine.If your not familiar with the Association this kind of stuff is right up their alley.Regardless keep us informed.Now you got me interested.Regards, MC.

12-19-2001, 07:45 PM	#17
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: A Suggestion;Napca I had sugguested that to him too MC! I am sure that will be done in next few months! Thor

12-20-2001, 07:50 AM	#18
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: A Suggestion;Napca Mike, Right On! I have started writing up a memo for the "Auto-Mag" to get more information. IT is amazing some of the resposes you get back from the membership. The only problem is the answers are a little slow in coming, but I still like the monthly newsletter that I can hold and read. Keep a lookout for the memo! Marvin