Luger on gunbroker.

wayne8661 · 04-26-2009, 10:05 PM

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte...Item=127414722

I found this luger interesting but I cant find any info about it. Is this a good pistol? I found info on 1906 Bulgarian contracts but I got zilch on 1908. Actually I cant find anything with the DWM on the chamber . Would you gentlemen care to school a novice?

Edward Tinker · 04-26-2009, 10:14 PM

I just missed this one at the Gettysburg auction. I was there and left to go do family stuff, came back and missed the pistol by 5 or 6 auctions.

Bulgarians are not very well known, but when they are, they are marked like this, with the DWM stamped here.

I heard this went for around $1500, so would guess the reserve is slightly or more so higher.

I would have bid up to $1500, although I am no Bulgarian expert.

Ed

wayne8661 · 04-26-2009, 10:17 PM

Mr Tinker what do you make of the mismatch on the barrel and extractor could that be from an arsenal refurb?

Edward Tinker · 04-26-2009, 10:23 PM

Hard to say, anytime the numbers are wrong then any story could be made up.

From my limited knowledge, I would say it has the Bulgarian signs, DWM, Crest, Russian on safety, lanyard loop in different place.

What I am unsure of is what serial numbers are considered Bulgarians...

Ed

Ron Wood · 04-26-2009, 11:29 PM

The write up is correct, 1908 Bulgarians were made in two series 1-5000 and 1C-5000C. Actually, 1908 is a misnomer as the guns were contracted for and delivered in late 1910/early 1911. They were relatively unknown to collectors (even Harry Jones knew of only two examples when he published his book in 1959) and they were labled 1908 because they resembled the 1908 models without a stock lug. The safety marking is Bulgarian and Russian. It is the word for "FIRE". It is the same word in both languages and being pre-1917 the Cyrillic alphabet was the same in both languages. Further, the Bulgarian Lugers departed from the normal safety marking in that when the marking shows on any other Luger, the Luger is on safe (GESICHERT), but on the Bulgarians (and Russians) when the marking shows the gun is ready to fire.

I doubt that the mis-matched parts are the result of an arsenal refurb (notice that in addition to the barrel and extractor, the sear bar is also #72). There were a bunch of these guns brought into the US in the '60s, reportedly many of them in barrels and many in not very good condition. The good ones and as many that could be assembled into functioning pieces were sold through Ye Olde Hunter and other dealers (for about $39.00 as I recall). Many of the parts were sold off seperately and are found on all manner of shooter Lugers to this day. They are really neat and unique Lugers and, even in the condition of this one, quite collectable.

wayne8661 · 04-26-2009, 11:32 PM

Thanx a million Ron

Michael Zeleny · 04-27-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

The safety marking is Bulgarian and Russian. It is the word for "FIRE". It is the same word in both languages and being pre-1917 the Cyrillic alphabet was the same in both languages. Further, the Bulgarian Lugers departed from the normal safety marking in that when the marking shows on any other Luger, the Luger is on safe (GESICHERT), but on the Bulgarians (and Russians) when the marking shows the gun is ready to fire.

Not quite. The exposed ОГЪНЪ does indicate the safety lever position for FIRE in Bulgarian spelling. But the Russian spelling would be ОГОНЬ. These Wikipedia pages explain the roles of the hard and soft signs in Cyrillic alphabets:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_sign

Ron Wood · 04-27-2009, 12:11 PM

Mike,
I appreciate the references. My understanding is that the Russian Cyrillic alphabet underwent a standardization process in the 1916-1917 timeframe which would have resulted in the distinction between the Bulgarian and Russian spelling that you pointed out. I have been informed by others (perhaps incorrectly, I have no way of confirming) that prior to that time the spelling was the same.

Michael Zeleny · 04-27-2009, 12:21 PM

The difference in Bulgarian spelling is due to a variation in phonetics unrelated to the Russian spelling reforms.

Ron Wood · 04-27-2009, 12:53 PM

Interesting. I do not speak either language, so I am only going by information from an old Russian gentleman I received well over 20 years ago when I obtained my first Bulgarian Luger. According to him, the word was pronounced the same (a rough phonetic approximation would be ah-go-in) in both languages and was therefore spelled the same.

Michael Zeleny · 04-27-2009, 11:12 PM

The word is pronounced the same in both languages, but its spelling differs because the Bulgarian Ъ retains the phonetic value of a vowel, unlike its modern Russian counterpart.

Ron Wood · 04-28-2009, 12:12 AM

OK, so let's continue my education. Is ОГОНЬ the modern Russian spelling, or is it the pre-1917 spelling?

Michael Zeleny · 04-28-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

OK, so let's continue my education. Is ОГОНЬ the modern Russian spelling, or is it the pre-1917 spelling?

It's both.

Ron Wood · 04-28-2009, 01:13 AM

Thanks.

04-26-2009, 10:05 PM	#1
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Luger on gunbroker. http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte...Item=127414722 I found this luger interesting but I cant find any info about it. Is this a good pistol? I found info on 1906 Bulgarian contracts but I got zilch on 1908. Actually I cant find anything with the DWM on the chamber . Would you gentlemen care to school a novice?

04-26-2009, 10:14 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	I just missed this one at the Gettysburg auction. I was there and left to go do family stuff, came back and missed the pistol by 5 or 6 auctions. Bulgarians are not very well known, but when they are, they are marked like this, with the DWM stamped here. I heard this went for around $1500, so would guess the reserve is slightly or more so higher. I would have bid up to $1500, although I am no Bulgarian expert. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-26-2009, 11:29 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,016 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	The write up is correct, 1908 Bulgarians were made in two series 1-5000 and 1C-5000C. Actually, 1908 is a misnomer as the guns were contracted for and delivered in late 1910/early 1911. They were relatively unknown to collectors (even Harry Jones knew of only two examples when he published his book in 1959) and they were labled 1908 because they resembled the 1908 models without a stock lug. The safety marking is Bulgarian and Russian. It is the word for "FIRE". It is the same word in both languages and being pre-1917 the Cyrillic alphabet was the same in both languages. Further, the Bulgarian Lugers departed from the normal safety marking in that when the marking shows on any other Luger, the Luger is on safe (GESICHERT), but on the Bulgarians (and Russians) when the marking shows the gun is ready to fire. I doubt that the mis-matched parts are the result of an arsenal refurb (notice that in addition to the barrel and extractor, the sear bar is also #72). There were a bunch of these guns brought into the US in the '60s, reportedly many of them in barrels and many in not very good condition. The good ones and as many that could be assembled into functioning pieces were sold through Ye Olde Hunter and other dealers (for about $39.00 as I recall). Many of the parts were sold off seperately and are found on all manner of shooter Lugers to this day. They are really neat and unique Lugers and, even in the condition of this one, quite collectable. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-27-2009, 12:11 PM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,016 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	Mike, I appreciate the references. My understanding is that the Russian Cyrillic alphabet underwent a standardization process in the 1916-1917 timeframe which would have resulted in the distinction between the Bulgarian and Russian spelling that you pointed out. I have been informed by others (perhaps incorrectly, I have no way of confirming) that prior to that time the spelling was the same. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-27-2009, 12:21 PM	#9
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	The difference in Bulgarian spelling is due to a variation in phonetics unrelated to the Russian spelling reforms. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

04-26-2009, 10:17 PM	#3
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Mr Tinker what do you make of the mismatch on the barrel and extractor could that be from an arsenal refurb?

04-26-2009, 10:23 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Hard to say, anytime the numbers are wrong then any story could be made up. From my limited knowledge, I would say it has the Bulgarian signs, DWM, Crest, Russian on safety, lanyard loop in different place. What I am unsure of is what serial numbers are considered Bulgarians... Ed

04-26-2009, 11:32 PM	#6
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Thanx a million Ron

04-27-2009, 12:53 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,016 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	Interesting. I do not speak either language, so I am only going by information from an old Russian gentleman I received well over 20 years ago when I obtained my first Bulgarian Luger. According to him, the word was pronounced the same (a rough phonetic approximation would be ah-go-in) in both languages and was therefore spelled the same. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 04-27-2009 at 02:36 PM.

04-27-2009, 11:12 PM	#11
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	The word is pronounced the same in both languages, but its spelling differs because the Bulgarian Ъ retains the phonetic value of a vowel, unlike its modern Russian counterpart. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

04-28-2009, 12:12 AM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,016 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	OK, so let's continue my education. Is ОГОНЬ the modern Russian spelling, or is it the pre-1917 spelling? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-28-2009, 01:13 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,016 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	Thanks. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction