Why DWM tools last longer?

alvin · 03-30-2008, 07:15 PM

As I have read from a few books, Mauser's toolset came from DWM. This toolset made around 2 million (?) Lugers. Erfurt toolset was transferred to Simson, then to HK to guide making new tools because the old Erfurt tool was too old/worn to be used. Simson production number is super low, even plus Erfurt, the number of guns made by this toolset is way lower than the DWM toolset.

Why DWM toolset ran forever, without facing the same worn problem?

Edward Tinker · 03-30-2008, 07:30 PM

I would imagine that the DWM tool sets were repaired and replaced as needed and that Mauser refurbished and updated (I have read that somewhere)...

raygun · 03-30-2008, 11:28 PM

Just while we are on this topic. I have read somewhere there were 4 sets of tools to manufacture Lugers , but I can only think of 3 ?

DWM and Erfurt which were in turn handed down to mauser , simpson and kreighoff . the only other I can think of is Bern in Switzerland . Have I missed any ?

It is generally accepted that the Vickers made guns for a dutch contract were assembled from DWM made parts .

A.Mifsin · 03-31-2008, 02:44 AM

Raygun, I believe that you are right that there were 3 set of tooling for the Luger Pistol.
The DWM which was transferred to Mauser, the Erfurt which was transferred to Simson and then to Krieghoff, and the one in Switzerland for the Swiss Luger.
It is also claimed that there could be the fourth, because Krieghoff used the Erfurt tooling to make another set since it was too worn out.
Now what I wish to know is, since Krieghoff started production for a 200 (I was told) Lugers as Limited edition what tooling are they using?
Alf.

Vlim · 03-31-2008, 07:39 AM

Hi,

The tooling should be viewed as a series of jigs, cutters and settings on otherwise relatively standard lathes, milling machines, boring machines, etc... These add-ons would wear out, some quicker than others, and they would be replaced, so basically keeping the lines running for decades.

What also helped is that DWM's mother company until 1929, Ludwig Loewe & Cie, made the production tooling themselves.

After WW2, the Krieghoff machinery found itself at the wrong side of the border. The tooling was looted by the Russians and what was left behind was integrated into an East-German VEB with many other companies. The Krieghoff family set up shop again in Western-Germany and started from scratch, producing the hunting rifles they had always been renowned for. The last Krieghoff Lugers (the 2007 series) was produced with modern tooling.

The original DWM / Mauser tooling was scattered all over Europe after the war, many tools were distributed amongst allied countries as part of the payment for war damages.

alvin · 04-13-2008, 05:50 AM

Regarding the Krieghoff, all references that I've read say "the old tooling was most likely used as a pattern in preparing the new tooling" (e.g. Gibson, 1988), without further description on how it was accomplished.

It sounds like a reverse engineering process -- use existing worn toolset, measure it's dimention and hardness, setup detailed manufactuering procedure, and make a new toolset. Not unlike how Inglis making HP35 in Canada.

Krieghoff must have the original toolset drawings, and schedule of details. It's hard to believe they did not have those papers. It would be easier to follow those papers than reverse engineering. Why they had to use old tooling (physical? that's my understanding) to guide making new tooling? Or, only physical tools were transferred to them without drawing?

=====

A wild guess.... Could the toolset be hierachical.... use Master tools to make Working tools, and use Working tools to make guns ?? Master tools could last long long time because they are seldomly used. Worn Working tools can be replaced as needed.

A.Mifsin · 04-13-2008, 06:09 AM

"The last Krieghoff Lugers (the 2007 series) was produced with modern tooling. "

G. van Vlimmeren, am I understanding right that Kreighoff made new tools/machines for just 200 Lugers.

Alf

Vlim · 04-13-2008, 12:24 PM

Alf,

They basically are handbuilt. That's why the price is pretty high even for Krieghoff standards.

@Alvin,

The tooling mostly constists of jigs on standard machinery. Krieghoff probably had access to the design drawings and the technical date for the machines as well. But they probably chose to use their own standard machinery and design new jigs around them, rather than use the (older) machinery of Simson. A bit like the thing Mauser did in the 1960s with the Swiss jigs, which could not be used directly because of different standardizations used.

A.Mifsin · 04-13-2008, 12:57 PM

Thank You G. van Vlimmeren.
Alf

03-30-2008, 07:15 PM	#1
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Why DWM tools last longer? As I have read from a few books, Mauser's toolset came from DWM. This toolset made around 2 million (?) Lugers. Erfurt toolset was transferred to Simson, then to HK to guide making new tools because the old Erfurt tool was too old/worn to be used. Simson production number is super low, even plus Erfurt, the number of guns made by this toolset is way lower than the DWM toolset. Why DWM toolset ran forever, without facing the same worn problem?

03-30-2008, 07:30 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	I would imagine that the DWM tool sets were repaired and replaced as needed and that Mauser refurbished and updated (I have read that somewhere)... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-30-2008, 11:28 PM	#3
raygun User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: brisbane Posts: 150 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Just while we are on this topic. I have read somewhere there were 4 sets of tools to manufacture Lugers , but I can only think of 3 ? DWM and Erfurt which were in turn handed down to mauser , simpson and kreighoff . the only other I can think of is Bern in Switzerland . Have I missed any ? It is generally accepted that the Vickers made guns for a dutch contract were assembled from DWM made parts . __________________ arma tuentur pacem

03-31-2008, 02:44 AM	#4
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Raygun, I believe that you are right that there were 3 set of tooling for the Luger Pistol. The DWM which was transferred to Mauser, the Erfurt which was transferred to Simson and then to Krieghoff, and the one in Switzerland for the Swiss Luger. It is also claimed that there could be the fourth, because Krieghoff used the Erfurt tooling to make another set since it was too worn out. Now what I wish to know is, since Krieghoff started production for a 200 (I was told) Lugers as Limited edition what tooling are they using? Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

04-13-2008, 06:09 AM	#7
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	"The last Krieghoff Lugers (the 2007 series) was produced with modern tooling. " G. van Vlimmeren, am I understanding right that Kreighoff made new tools/machines for just 200 Lugers. Alf __________________ I prefer a Luger

03-31-2008, 07:39 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The tooling should be viewed as a series of jigs, cutters and settings on otherwise relatively standard lathes, milling machines, boring machines, etc... These add-ons would wear out, some quicker than others, and they would be replaced, so basically keeping the lines running for decades. What also helped is that DWM's mother company until 1929, Ludwig Loewe & Cie, made the production tooling themselves. After WW2, the Krieghoff machinery found itself at the wrong side of the border. The tooling was looted by the Russians and what was left behind was integrated into an East-German VEB with many other companies. The Krieghoff family set up shop again in Western-Germany and started from scratch, producing the hunting rifles they had always been renowned for. The last Krieghoff Lugers (the 2007 series) was produced with modern tooling. The original DWM / Mauser tooling was scattered all over Europe after the war, many tools were distributed amongst allied countries as part of the payment for war damages.

04-13-2008, 05:50 AM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Regarding the Krieghoff, all references that I've read say "the old tooling was most likely used as a pattern in preparing the new tooling" (e.g. Gibson, 1988), without further description on how it was accomplished. It sounds like a reverse engineering process -- use existing worn toolset, measure it's dimention and hardness, setup detailed manufactuering procedure, and make a new toolset. Not unlike how Inglis making HP35 in Canada. Krieghoff must have the original toolset drawings, and schedule of details. It's hard to believe they did not have those papers. It would be easier to follow those papers than reverse engineering. Why they had to use old tooling (physical? that's my understanding) to guide making new tooling? Or, only physical tools were transferred to them without drawing? ===== A wild guess.... Could the toolset be hierachical.... use Master tools to make Working tools, and use Working tools to make guns ?? Master tools could last long long time because they are seldomly used. Worn Working tools can be replaced as needed.

04-13-2008, 12:24 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Alf, They basically are handbuilt. That's why the price is pretty high even for Krieghoff standards. @Alvin, The tooling mostly constists of jigs on standard machinery. Krieghoff probably had access to the design drawings and the technical date for the machines as well. But they probably chose to use their own standard machinery and design new jigs around them, rather than use the (older) machinery of Simson. A bit like the thing Mauser did in the 1960s with the Swiss jigs, which could not be used directly because of different standardizations used.

04-13-2008, 12:57 PM	#9
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Thank You G. van Vlimmeren. Alf __________________ I prefer a Luger