Ya never know...

Ron Smith · 03-30-2006, 11:11 AM

As most of you know, I retired from the Postal Service.

We had a Rural Route Carrier named Gary Hartman. Gary was a 61 year old, short , rolly polly little guy. He was very quiet, and didn't give the impression that he was very intelligent. His personal hygene was somewhat lacking. Missing several teeth from lacking of dental care. He often spoke of being in the Army, but didn't share any details.

He was diabetic and had several other unspecified ailments which often sent him to the VA hospital. He didn't own a car until he purchased a Postal surplus vehicle for use on his route.

Gary passed away last Saturday of complications of diabetis. His obituary was published in our local paper. We all read it in disbelief.

Green Beret Sargeant

4 tours in Vietnam with Mountain tribes.

Over 1000 parachutes jumps.

Spoke 3 languages fluently

Qualified Pilot multi-engine aircraft and glider.

4 Purple Hearts

3 Bronze Stars

1 Silver Star

Multiple other citations for Valor , both US and Rep. of Vietnam

Gary was truly an unsung hero.

He once told me that the only thing that he learned in the Army, was how to type.

Ron

John Sabato · 03-30-2006, 11:50 AM

Ron, I had a friend like that in the Army. His name was SSG Leslie Braz...

A great friend and fellow gun enthusiast... he quietly reported to Fort Ritchie Maryland during my first tour there returning from his only tour to Vietnam...

A "fixed station" communications electronics-crypto maintenance guy by MOS... like me... he was quiet, soft spoken, and seldom did anything but his duty...

I never saw him in civilian clothes... on those occasions when I visited him at his quarters, he wore cut-off fatigues, and an OD t-shirt... we'd play Pinnocle a lot on long 12 hour shifts in the communications center... He never talked about Vietnam... He was a "real" soldier. A patriotic man of honor and ethics.

...about 2 years after he reported for duty at Fort Ritchie, and a month before I shipped out there was a Retirement and Awards Ceremony in which we both participated in formation as observers...

After the retirees were honored came the awards...

When his name was called to report to the Command formation, he acted very surprised and told me he had no idea what it was about.

He was awarded the Bronze Star for Valor...

THough I don't recall the words of the citation, I do remember the discussion of the Post Commander as he was presented the medal. It seems that when he would complete his regular 12-hour shift in the "Fixed Station" communications center, that he would walk on down to the local airfield, and fly door gunner on an armed Huey...

When questioned by me about the medal, he just said that he needed to keep busy to stay out of trouble, and he figured those air crews worked a lot harder than he did... so he would take turns relieving them for sorties when he wasn't working or sleeping... He never spoke about his experience again... and wouldn't give details about why he earned the medal he didn't even know he had been submitted for...

After surviving that combat tour as a fixed station C-E maintenance NCO, he came back stateside and quietly went about his duties in a manner which was an example to all who worked with and for him... One thing that always puzzled me about him was that he was always mooching something or another... cigarettes, half of somebody else's snack... rides, even though he owned a car (a rusty 1952 Chevrolet)... He was married in the fall of 1972... just before I left.

His existence all became clear in the spring of 1973, when I was notified by message in East Africa that he had been killed while walking down the side of a State Highway 35 in New Jersey in the pouring rain... sideswiped by a car. He only drove when he absolutely had to...because everyone thought he was too cheap to buy gas...

Turns out that before he was married, most of his paycheck went to pay insurance premiums with his nieces and nephews as the beneficiaries... he parents were already gone... he figured that if he died in the line of duty, that his only heirs should have the benefit of his existence... He left over a $1,000,000 insurance estate to his new wife, and the daughter he would never see... as he changed his beneficiary right after he was married of course...

That is the type of guy he was... he is gone, but not forgotten... at least by me.

His widow had no shortage of potential suitors ( a million bucks in 1973 money was a lot more than it is now)... and married and moved away about two years later...

policeluger · 03-30-2006, 11:56 AM

Two wonderful stories, I have always been turned of by the braggart....Christ moved in quite and peaceful ways, as these men did....thanks so much for sharing this with us.

Rod WMG · 03-30-2006, 11:51 PM

A belated "Thanks", Gary and Les!

tudorbug · 03-31-2006, 12:09 PM

Stand tall in their presence, folks! Straight back, fingers slightly curled, thumb at the seams and render a salute.

David

Edward Tinker · 03-31-2006, 12:27 PM

A friend of mine, Jose Munoz was our platoon leader at Fort Polk and was one of those guys that took care of his troops. I liked him a lot (he died in a car crash about 10 years ago). One day we had a full class "A" inspection and I was shocked to see all kinds of awards and decorations. he had been to Nam and just did his job every day taking care of troops.

In BDU's he didn't display a combat patch or other items that he was authorized to wear, I think he felt he should be given respect for who he was now, not then.

Ron, like you said, you never know...

I try to live by the motto that we should treat everyone we meet with respect, as you never know where thye have walked in their shoes...

Ed

pipeman45 · 04-01-2006, 09:00 PM

Having served ,I know that there are three support personal for every combat soldure. It has been my experance that the braggarets were mostly hot air. The quiet ones that didn't want to talk about what they did were the ones that saw the real action.
A hero has passed this way,and his likes will not soon be seen again.

laoshi75 · 07-26-2007, 06:40 PM

Hello Gentlemen,

I read your posts very carefully, and..I would like to ask you a personal question..Hope it's the right place, if not I apologize !
When my Father died, a few years ago, I discovered he had been awarded with the US Silver Star by command of General DEVERS, 6th Army, on 20 May 1945. Please see the attached papers. I discovered Jean V. had also been awarded with other French military medals. My Father never spoke about this when he was alive..
My questions are:

-Is the Silver Star commonly granted to foreign soldiers ? I believed the Silver Star was only granted to US people !
-Is the Silver Star specifically a military medal, or is it granted to civilian people ?
-My last question (and may be the most stupid): is the Silver Star an important medal in the USA ?

Thank you Gentlemen for your answers.

Christian

laoshi75 · 07-26-2007, 06:41 PM

Restricted !!

Heinz · 07-26-2007, 07:16 PM

Christian, the Silver Star is an important medal, one of the highest the United States military awards for valor. The weblink for US service metals is here http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm

If you read the medal requirements you will see that it could be awarded to other the US soldiers, although that is indeed rare. It is interesting to note that distribution on your father's award is marked "restricted."

below from http://www.psywar.org/usa.php

Northwestern European theatre: military organization of SHAEF. Under Eisenhower, SHAEF was organized in three Army Groups (AG's): The 6th AG comprised the French 1st Army, commanded by General Lasse de Tassigny; and the U.S. 7th Army, commanded by General Alexander Patch.

So you know when the event happened and where to look.

And, our thanks to your father.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-26-2007, 08:28 PM

Christian, Sounds like from the Citation your Father earned this medal for Valor. Congratulations..Do you actually have his medal? That would be something indeed. I second Heinz, Thanks to your Father and many like him, we live in Freedom. Jerry Burney

davidkachel · 07-26-2007, 08:37 PM

Intrigueing stories.
They remind me of something I heard once, paraphrased;
'Beware the quiet unassuming little man. He'll kill you!'

John Sabato · 07-27-2007, 04:05 PM

Heinz,

I believe that the reason that award orders of that period were marked restricted (which is similar to today's category of "for official use only") is that public notice of valor against an enemy force when some of the enemy who may have fought in the same battles may be somewhere in the vicinity, could have meant personal reprisals against those locals who achieved public notariety ...because of the loss of brothers or brothers in arms by the enemy in those battles...

just my theory, but it has some basis in fact. I have not gone through my fathers wartime things in several decades... perhaps it is time for me to revisit that cedar chest the next time I am home...

John Sabato · 07-27-2007, 04:24 PM

Christian, it is indeed an great thing to learn that your father was awarded the U.S. Amry Silver Star... it is a distinction for which not many foreign soldiers have been recognized.

At one time, General Devers was the Commanding General of the 9th Infantry Division in which my father served.

Here is a photo that may interest you:

Photo courtesy of Denis Toomey www.dogfacesoldiers.org

Sixth Army Group commander General Jacob Devers and French First Army commander General Jean de Lattre de Tasigny greet the citizens of Colmar, France after the city was liberated from four years of Nazi control in early February 1945.

laoshi75 · 07-27-2007, 06:44 PM

Heinz,

Thank you very much for these interesting precisions and links ! I begin my research about this, it's impressive for me..your answer is very precious.

John, great photo ! I think General DEVERS was the Commanding General of the Allied Army in the French Alpes in 1945 where my Father served before going to Austria.. Thank you John !!

Jerry, yes I found all the Medals...I wish I had awarded them..
"Good Fathers, bad sons"..

lugerholsterrepair · 07-27-2007, 08:27 PM

Christian, Remembering is Honoring your Father...What else can you do? Jerry Burney

Edward Tinker · 07-27-2007, 08:44 PM

Christian, I doubt your father would think poorly of you. A father seldom does

Heinz · 07-28-2007, 07:23 AM

John, thanks, that makes sense and I did not know that.

Christian, You are welcome. Living free is the greatest gift you could give your father, especially if that includes another generation of Vannier!

MikeP · 07-28-2007, 03:50 PM

I just checked the SFA site "TAPs" section.
Hartman is not listed.
They will list his obit even if he is not an association member.
Needs to be reported to them, though.
I was a SF advisor at an "A" camp for 16 months.
The VN camp commander had a siver star.
One of the relatively few "good" LLDB.

03-30-2006, 11:11 AM	#1
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ya never know... As most of you know, I retired from the Postal Service. We had a Rural Route Carrier named Gary Hartman. Gary was a 61 year old, short , rolly polly little guy. He was very quiet, and didn't give the impression that he was very intelligent. His personal hygene was somewhat lacking. Missing several teeth from lacking of dental care. He often spoke of being in the Army, but didn't share any details. He was diabetic and had several other unspecified ailments which often sent him to the VA hospital. He didn't own a car until he purchased a Postal surplus vehicle for use on his route. Gary passed away last Saturday of complications of diabetis. His obituary was published in our local paper. We all read it in disbelief. Green Beret Sargeant 4 tours in Vietnam with Mountain tribes. Over 1000 parachutes jumps. Spoke 3 languages fluently Qualified Pilot multi-engine aircraft and glider. 4 Purple Hearts 3 Bronze Stars 1 Silver Star Multiple other citations for Valor , both US and Rep. of Vietnam Gary was truly an unsung hero. He once told me that the only thing that he learned in the Army, was how to type. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-30-2006, 11:50 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ron, I had a friend like that in the Army. His name was SSG Leslie Braz... A great friend and fellow gun enthusiast... he quietly reported to Fort Ritchie Maryland during my first tour there returning from his only tour to Vietnam... A "fixed station" communications electronics-crypto maintenance guy by MOS... like me... he was quiet, soft spoken, and seldom did anything but his duty... I never saw him in civilian clothes... on those occasions when I visited him at his quarters, he wore cut-off fatigues, and an OD t-shirt... we'd play Pinnocle a lot on long 12 hour shifts in the communications center... He never talked about Vietnam... He was a "real" soldier. A patriotic man of honor and ethics. ...about 2 years after he reported for duty at Fort Ritchie, and a month before I shipped out there was a Retirement and Awards Ceremony in which we both participated in formation as observers... After the retirees were honored came the awards... When his name was called to report to the Command formation, he acted very surprised and told me he had no idea what it was about. He was awarded the Bronze Star for Valor... THough I don't recall the words of the citation, I do remember the discussion of the Post Commander as he was presented the medal. It seems that when he would complete his regular 12-hour shift in the "Fixed Station" communications center, that he would walk on down to the local airfield, and fly door gunner on an armed Huey... When questioned by me about the medal, he just said that he needed to keep busy to stay out of trouble, and he figured those air crews worked a lot harder than he did... so he would take turns relieving them for sorties when he wasn't working or sleeping... He never spoke about his experience again... and wouldn't give details about why he earned the medal he didn't even know he had been submitted for... After surviving that combat tour as a fixed station C-E maintenance NCO, he came back stateside and quietly went about his duties in a manner which was an example to all who worked with and for him... One thing that always puzzled me about him was that he was always mooching something or another... cigarettes, half of somebody else's snack... rides, even though he owned a car (a rusty 1952 Chevrolet)... He was married in the fall of 1972... just before I left. His existence all became clear in the spring of 1973, when I was notified by message in East Africa that he had been killed while walking down the side of a State Highway 35 in New Jersey in the pouring rain... sideswiped by a car. He only drove when he absolutely had to...because everyone thought he was too cheap to buy gas... Turns out that before he was married, most of his paycheck went to pay insurance premiums with his nieces and nephews as the beneficiaries... he parents were already gone... he figured that if he died in the line of duty, that his only heirs should have the benefit of his existence... He left over a $1,000,000 insurance estate to his new wife, and the daughter he would never see... as he changed his beneficiary right after he was married of course... That is the type of guy he was... he is gone, but not forgotten... at least by me. His widow had no shortage of potential suitors ( a million bucks in 1973 money was a lot more than it is now)... and married and moved away about two years later... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-01-2006, 09:00 PM	#7
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Having served ,I know that there are three support personal for every combat soldure. It has been my experance that the braggarets were mostly hot air. The quiet ones that didn't want to talk about what they did were the ones that saw the real action. A hero has passed this way,and his likes will not soon be seen again. __________________ Dave

07-26-2007, 06:40 PM	#8
laoshi75 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand/France Posts: 490 Thanks: 288 Thanked 96 Times in 41 Posts	Silver Star Hello Gentlemen, I read your posts very carefully, and..I would like to ask you a personal question..Hope it's the right place, if not I apologize ! When my Father died, a few years ago, I discovered he had been awarded with the US Silver Star by command of General DEVERS, 6th Army, on 20 May 1945. Please see the attached papers. I discovered Jean V. had also been awarded with other French military medals. My Father never spoke about this when he was alive.. My questions are: -Is the Silver Star commonly granted to foreign soldiers ? I believed the Silver Star was only granted to US people ! -Is the Silver Star specifically a military medal, or is it granted to civilian people ? -My last question (and may be the most stupid): is the Silver Star an important medal in the USA ? Thank you Gentlemen for your answers. Christian Attached Thumbnails

07-26-2007, 06:41 PM	#9
laoshi75 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand/France Posts: 490 Thanks: 288 Thanked 96 Times in 41 Posts	photo2 Restricted !! Attached Thumbnails

03-30-2006, 11:56 AM	#3
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Two wonderful stories, I have always been turned of by the braggart....Christ moved in quite and peaceful ways, as these men did....thanks so much for sharing this with us.

03-30-2006, 11:51 PM	#4
Rod WMG User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The Edge of Texas Posts: 514 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A belated "Thanks", Gary and Les!

03-31-2006, 12:09 PM	#5
tudorbug Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 387 Thanks: 0 Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts	Stand tall in their presence, folks! Straight back, fingers slightly curled, thumb at the seams and render a salute. David

03-31-2006, 12:27 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	A friend of mine, Jose Munoz was our platoon leader at Fort Polk and was one of those guys that took care of his troops. I liked him a lot (he died in a car crash about 10 years ago). One day we had a full class "A" inspection and I was shocked to see all kinds of awards and decorations. he had been to Nam and just did his job every day taking care of troops. In BDU's he didn't display a combat patch or other items that he was authorized to wear, I think he felt he should be given respect for who he was now, not then. Ron, like you said, you never know... I try to live by the motto that we should treat everyone we meet with respect, as you never know where thye have walked in their shoes... Ed

07-26-2007, 07:16 PM	#10
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Christian, the Silver Star is an important medal, one of the highest the United States military awards for valor. The weblink for US service metals is here http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm If you read the medal requirements you will see that it could be awarded to other the US soldiers, although that is indeed rare. It is interesting to note that distribution on your father's award is marked "restricted." below from http://www.psywar.org/usa.php Northwestern European theatre: military organization of SHAEF. Under Eisenhower, SHAEF was organized in three Army Groups (AG's): The 6th AG comprised the French 1st Army, commanded by General Lasse de Tassigny; and the U.S. 7th Army, commanded by General Alexander Patch. So you know when the event happened and where to look. And, our thanks to your father.

07-26-2007, 08:28 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	Christian, Sounds like from the Citation your Father earned this medal for Valor. Congratulations..Do you actually have his medal? That would be something indeed. I second Heinz, Thanks to your Father and many like him, we live in Freedom. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-26-2007, 08:37 PM	#12
davidkachel User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 784 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Intrigueing stories. They remind me of something I heard once, paraphrased; 'Beware the quiet unassuming little man. He'll kill you!' __________________ A heroin habit would be cheaper.

07-27-2007, 04:05 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Heinz, I believe that the reason that award orders of that period were marked restricted (which is similar to today's category of "for official use only") is that public notice of valor against an enemy force when some of the enemy who may have fought in the same battles may be somewhere in the vicinity, could have meant personal reprisals against those locals who achieved public notariety ...because of the loss of brothers or brothers in arms by the enemy in those battles... just my theory, but it has some basis in fact. I have not gone through my fathers wartime things in several decades... perhaps it is time for me to revisit that cedar chest the next time I am home... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-27-2007, 04:24 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Christian, it is indeed an great thing to learn that your father was awarded the U.S. Amry Silver Star... it is a distinction for which not many foreign soldiers have been recognized. At one time, General Devers was the Commanding General of the 9th Infantry Division in which my father served. Here is a photo that may interest you: Photo courtesy of Denis Toomey www.dogfacesoldiers.org Sixth Army Group commander General Jacob Devers and French First Army commander General Jean de Lattre de Tasigny greet the citizens of Colmar, France after the city was liberated from four years of Nazi control in early February 1945. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-27-2007, 06:44 PM	#15
laoshi75 User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Thailand/France Posts: 490 Thanks: 288 Thanked 96 Times in 41 Posts	Heinz, Thank you very much for these interesting precisions and links ! I begin my research about this, it's impressive for me..your answer is very precious. John, great photo ! I think General DEVERS was the Commanding General of the Allied Army in the French Alpes in 1945 where my Father served before going to Austria.. Thank you John !! Jerry, yes I found all the Medals...I wish I had awarded them.. "Good Fathers, bad sons"..

07-27-2007, 08:27 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,766 Thanks: 4,883 Thanked 3,121 Times in 1,432 Posts	Christian, Remembering is Honoring your Father...What else can you do? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-27-2007, 08:44 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Christian, I doubt your father would think poorly of you. A father seldom does __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-28-2007, 07:23 AM	#18
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	John, thanks, that makes sense and I did not know that. Christian, You are welcome. Living free is the greatest gift you could give your father, especially if that includes another generation of Vannier!

07-28-2007, 03:50 PM	#19
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I just checked the SFA site "TAPs" section. Hartman is not listed. They will list his obit even if he is not an association member. Needs to be reported to them, though. I was a SF advisor at an "A" camp for 16 months. The VN camp commander had a siver star. One of the relatively few "good" LLDB.