My new byf P08, what are the proof marks?

RylanBrissette · 03-03-2007, 07:48 PM

Hey guys I'm new to this. I was hoping you can check out the picture links below and tell me a bit about my first Luger. Don't be afraid to let me know what you think. It's much appriated.

It is a byf but has no marking above the chamber. It has a matching frame, barrel and upper. It also doesnt have the P.08 stamped on the frame by the safety. I have detail stripped it and has mostly matching parts. All but the toggle pin, and also the striker & extractor area which is all stamped 56. The serial number is 7969 and it has a weird N with crown stamp almost overlapping the serial number. It also has another unidentified stamp on the right side of the frame, it is the letters "Su" over top of the number 25 (see pictures). I paid $450 canadian for it at a local gun show, it came with just 1 mag.

Anyways I look forward to talking to you all. If you know what those proof marks are, or why it doesnt have a number stamped above the chamber (41, 42) let me know! Plus the P.08 by the safety. I have to say this is a great site!

Regards,
Rylan Brissette

Dwight Gruber · 03-04-2007, 05:47 PM

Rylan,

It looks like you have a very interesting Luger to shoot.

This gun started life as a DWM Commercial Luger (c/N proof) and sometime--probably in the early 30s--it was reworked and proofed by the Heeres Zeugamt (weapons depot) at Spandau (SU25) for military use. As a Commercial Luger it would not have a date stamped on the chamber (there is a very occasional exception date stamped 1920 or 1921).

Some time after WWII--probably after capture and return to North America--the original toggle train was replaced by the Mauser byf toggle which you report it has today.

Is there any chance you could report the full frame serial number, with script letter suffix? Is the gun stamped GERMANY? Do the numbers on the breechblock, center toggle, and rear toggle tail actually match the frame numbers??

The price you paid is generally appropriate for a Luger of this nature; I'd venture to say that you actually made a pretty good deal.

--Dwight

RylanBrissette · 03-04-2007, 08:00 PM

Hey Dwight,

Thanks alot for your reply. Your post explains alot and also raises more questions. The Barrel frame and upper are all matching (7969). But parts on the upper are not. I have looked at the suffix charts and to tell you the truth cannot make a positive match. The letter underneath the barrel serial number looks like a "y" and the one under the serial number on the frame (lower) looks like a "q", but I am not too sure. I have taken a few pictures, but for some reason my camera cannot take a very clear picture of it. Have a look at the pictures, but I think the Barrel suffix letter is 7969 "y" and the frame (lower) is 7969 "q", but I am not too sure about that. The luger is not stamped "Germany" anywhere. But what doesn't make sence to me is why the byf toggle would match my gun if it was just a replacmeant.. I'm only 15 and am new at this, but it seems to be a bit of a mystery. Anyways if you, or anyone has any further answers that would be great!

Here are the pictures.

(REMOVED)

THEY LOOK BETTER IN REAL LIFE! I dont know why but I can't pull off a good picture!

-Rylan

Dwight Gruber · 03-05-2007, 04:19 AM

Rylan,

For pictures, try putting your camera on its "macro" setting, put the gun on some surface, and brace the camera on a surface or use a tripod.

The new pictures are tantalizing. I agree that the frame suffix is q.

I'm not sure that the byf center toggle is originally numbered 69. It looks "messed up", as though the number might have been changed. A sharper picture of the rear toggle link might reveal an overstamp there as well, you might see something unusual by eye. It looks like there is a stamp on the top of the rear toggle link, is that true and if so what is it?

The barrel suffix is intriguing as well, I agree that it looks like y.

It is a fact that Luger owners occasionally go to some trouble to find replacement parts which have the same number as the gun they are to go on. I once had a 1918 Artillery Luger which had a frame and barrel with the same number, but the frame suffix was l and the barrel suffix was b. These script letters are sufficiently similar that it took a magnifying glass to see that they sere not the same. Marring on the barrel and frame was ample evidence that the barrel had been changed, and someone had gone to a great deal of trouble to find a barrel which, to casual observation, would be a "match". All this is to reinforce that some of the numbers on your gun are what are called "force matched", possibly the barrel in particular.

Only 15 and already this deep in the mysteries of Lugers, eh? Very glad to welcome you to what I hope will be a long and fruitful collecting career.

--Dwight

--Dwight

RylanBrissette · 03-05-2007, 09:32 PM

Dwight,

The photo tips worked great, I can now take much better photos

You are right, the "69" on the byf toggle looks strange. Not so much the actual "69", but the area around it. It almost seems to have been grinded out, then restamped with a different number...thus the 69. I have noticed this before, but for some reason never thought much of it. But after thinking about it, I think the sideplate has been grinded down aswell and then restamped! The new picture links below should illustrate the markings a bit better. Also there seem to be some more stamps, although faint on the rear toggle by the rear sight. Another thing I have noticed is that the take-down lever has 2 stampes on it, although both 69 should there be 2?? And my last question. Should the frame and barrel have the same suffix letter? From the picture links below, do you think the witness mark on the barrel indicates it has not been altered in anyway?

RylanBrissette · 03-11-2007, 03:19 AM

Anyone else have any thoughts on anything discussed here?

03-03-2007, 07:48 PM	#1
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	My new byf P08, what are the proof marks? Hey guys I'm new to this. I was hoping you can check out the picture links below and tell me a bit about my first Luger. Don't be afraid to let me know what you think. It's much appriated. It is a byf but has no marking above the chamber. It has a matching frame, barrel and upper. It also doesnt have the P.08 stamped on the frame by the safety. I have detail stripped it and has mostly matching parts. All but the toggle pin, and also the striker & extractor area which is all stamped 56. The serial number is 7969 and it has a weird N with crown stamp almost overlapping the serial number. It also has another unidentified stamp on the right side of the frame, it is the letters "Su" over top of the number 25 (see pictures). I paid $450 canadian for it at a local gun show, it came with just 1 mag. Anyways I look forward to talking to you all. If you know what those proof marks are, or why it doesnt have a number stamped above the chamber (41, 42) let me know! Plus the P.08 by the safety. I have to say this is a great site! Regards, Rylan Brissette Last edited by RylanBrissette; 07-23-2009 at 10:26 PM.

03-04-2007, 08:00 PM	#3
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hey Dwight, Thanks alot for your reply. Your post explains alot and also raises more questions. The Barrel frame and upper are all matching (7969). But parts on the upper are not. I have looked at the suffix charts and to tell you the truth cannot make a positive match. The letter underneath the barrel serial number looks like a "y" and the one under the serial number on the frame (lower) looks like a "q", but I am not too sure. I have taken a few pictures, but for some reason my camera cannot take a very clear picture of it. Have a look at the pictures, but I think the Barrel suffix letter is 7969 "y" and the frame (lower) is 7969 "q", but I am not too sure about that. The luger is not stamped "Germany" anywhere. But what doesn't make sence to me is why the byf toggle would match my gun if it was just a replacmeant.. I'm only 15 and am new at this, but it seems to be a bit of a mystery. Anyways if you, or anyone has any further answers that would be great! Here are the pictures. (REMOVED) THEY LOOK BETTER IN REAL LIFE! I dont know why but I can't pull off a good picture! -Rylan Last edited by RylanBrissette; 07-23-2009 at 10:27 PM.

03-05-2007, 09:32 PM	#5
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Dwight, The photo tips worked great, I can now take much better photos You are right, the "69" on the byf toggle looks strange. Not so much the actual "69", but the area around it. It almost seems to have been grinded out, then restamped with a different number...thus the 69. I have noticed this before, but for some reason never thought much of it. But after thinking about it, I think the sideplate has been grinded down aswell and then restamped! The new picture links below should illustrate the markings a bit better. Also there seem to be some more stamps, although faint on the rear toggle by the rear sight. Another thing I have noticed is that the take-down lever has 2 stampes on it, although both 69 should there be 2?? And my last question. Should the frame and barrel have the same suffix letter? From the picture links below, do you think the witness mark on the barrel indicates it has not been altered in anyway? Last edited by RylanBrissette; 07-23-2009 at 10:27 PM.

03-04-2007, 05:47 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Rylan, It looks like you have a very interesting Luger to shoot. This gun started life as a DWM Commercial Luger (c/N proof) and sometime--probably in the early 30s--it was reworked and proofed by the Heeres Zeugamt (weapons depot) at Spandau (SU25) for military use. As a Commercial Luger it would not have a date stamped on the chamber (there is a very occasional exception date stamped 1920 or 1921). Some time after WWII--probably after capture and return to North America--the original toggle train was replaced by the Mauser byf toggle which you report it has today. Is there any chance you could report the full frame serial number, with script letter suffix? Is the gun stamped GERMANY? Do the numbers on the breechblock, center toggle, and rear toggle tail actually match the frame numbers?? The price you paid is generally appropriate for a Luger of this nature; I'd venture to say that you actually made a pretty good deal. --Dwight

03-05-2007, 04:19 AM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Rylan, For pictures, try putting your camera on its "macro" setting, put the gun on some surface, and brace the camera on a surface or use a tripod. The new pictures are tantalizing. I agree that the frame suffix is q. I'm not sure that the byf center toggle is originally numbered 69. It looks "messed up", as though the number might have been changed. A sharper picture of the rear toggle link might reveal an overstamp there as well, you might see something unusual by eye. It looks like there is a stamp on the top of the rear toggle link, is that true and if so what is it? The barrel suffix is intriguing as well, I agree that it looks like y. It is a fact that Luger owners occasionally go to some trouble to find replacement parts which have the same number as the gun they are to go on. I once had a 1918 Artillery Luger which had a frame and barrel with the same number, but the frame suffix was l and the barrel suffix was b. These script letters are sufficiently similar that it took a magnifying glass to see that they sere not the same. Marring on the barrel and frame was ample evidence that the barrel had been changed, and someone had gone to a great deal of trouble to find a barrel which, to casual observation, would be a "match". All this is to reinforce that some of the numbers on your gun are what are called "force matched", possibly the barrel in particular. Only 15 and already this deep in the mysteries of Lugers, eh? Very glad to welcome you to what I hope will be a long and fruitful collecting career. --Dwight --Dwight

03-11-2007, 03:19 AM	#6
RylanBrissette User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 189 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Anyone else have any thoughts on anything discussed here?