9mm Borchardt?

Hello Luger Phreaks,


In the magazine "The Gun Report", Volume 45, number 7, December 1999 there is a value guide for Collector Cartridge Prices which concentrates this issue on Metric Pistol & Revolver Cartridges. The reference which the magazine uses is the "Manual Of Pistol & Revolver Cartridges" a three volume set. The first two volumes are compiled by Hans A. Elmeier and Jakob H. Brandt, with E-B designation and the third a continuation of the work by Mr. Brandt and Alfons Mueller after the death of MR. Erlmeier. Why do I give you all this information? Because, there is listed a 9mm Borchardt cartridge, reference E-B 114, valued at $500.


Has anyone ever seen one of these cartridges? More inportantly, has anyone ever seen a 9mm Borchardt pistol? Do either really exist? I would appreciate any comments.


Bill S.

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


No Borchardt pistols chambered for this 9 mm cartridge are known to exist. The cartridge in question is likely DWM cartridge â??480K Parabellum, Kal. 9mmâ?�. This was an experimental cartridge, and there is speculation it was designed to compete with the C96 chambered for the 9 mm Mauser Export. This cartridge would not fit in a standard Parabellum pistol unless the pistol was redesigned, and it has therefore been suggested that it was intended for the 1909 Borchardt pistol - but this is pure speculation.


Cartridge collectors call this cartridge the â??9mm Borchardtâ?� for the same reason some Lugers are called â??Black Widow Lugersâ?�; pure marketing


Best regards,


Kyrie

hi bill, here's a nice pic for you! greetings from germany. dieter




http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Bo...leimKoffer.jpg

[Big Norm]

WOOOO WHEEEE! That is one pretty Borchart. I have a German friend that has some German money. I think that it has 10 million DM or something on its face. Maybe I can talk her into loaning that money to me so I can make an offer to you and we won't have worry about Euro conversions.

Big Norm

Can I have it (please, pretty please!)

[John Sabato]

But only the "greetings" are from Dieter in Germany, the Borchardt is not his,


...the photo is one of the Lugerforum Centerfolds on the link to your left --


-John

[Dok]

and to truly give credit where credit is due, the Borchardt was our Luger of the Month for February 2001, and the use of the photo was kindly granted by Bob Adams, the owner of the Borchardt.


This Borchardt *is* for sale, and if you would truly like to have it, I suggest you contact Bob via his website which can be found in the Links & Resources.


Dok (Webmaster)

Kyrie,


Clue me in on the 1909 Borchardt pistol. This is a new one on me.


Bill S.

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Alas, not much is known :-(


Hugo Borchardt spent a number of years attempting to improve his C93 into a pistol acceptable to some national army, and finally gave up circa 1911. The reference to the â??9 mm Borchardtâ?? cartridge is based on speculation that one of his improvements was to a long 9 mm cartridge (similar to the 9x25 mm Mauser Export cartridge). But all this is highly speculative.


There is another line of speculation concerning the â??9 mm Borchardtâ?? cartridge that seeks to link this cartridge to DWMâ??s attempt to interest the British military in the Luger. The British cartridge requirements were very similar to the US cartridge requirements, and Herr Luger is known to have attempted to create a Luger chambered for a 9 mm cartridge that approximated the British muzzle energy requirements (without meeting the requirement for a .45 caliber bullet) by creating a longer (and probably slightly necked) 9mm cartridge with a high muzzle velocity.


And there is still another line of speculation that wants to link the â??9 mm Borchardtâ?? cartridge to a variation of the 1910 Bergman (which was chambered for the 9x23 Bergmann/Bayard) and would have been less hard to convert to take a cartridge of the length of the â??9mm Borchardtâ?? than would the Luger.


This is yet another of those areas were we have tantalizing hints concerning events, but the project (whatever it may have been!) was a commercial failure and so little to no primary source information is available. While the project was ultimately a failure, it lasted long enough to produce some significant amount of ammunition, as a number of â??9 mm Borchardtâ?? cartridges survive today. Fertile ground for hours of entertaining conversation


Best regards,


Kyrie

haha, funny, did you think it was mine??? i collect ervery pic here in the forum and from other places.

[Dok]

Some of the pictures on this site are copyright of the owners (Ralph Shattuck, Bob Adams etc), and we have permission to use them for display. If you redistribute them it may be appropriate to get permission first.


Dok (Webamster)

did not think about that, could be a mistake. i thought, it doesn't matter to show the pics, i have no problem with it and i'm not angry, if someone shows my pics.