Two Early Portuguese NavyÃ¢??s

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 12:15 PM

I have been hesitant to post pictures of my Portuguese NavyÃ¢??s, all of them have various nicks and dings but I do the best I can on a budget. I know some of you own similar Lugers and I am fishing for information and maybe some pictures of your guns to look at.
I am collecting data on the worker marks under the left grip, particularly on the center rail from top to bottom like the picture shown. Very common are FPT, FBT & OKT and others I am sure still not documented. They do not appear to relate to serial number batches as I once hoped, still I like collecting the information so if you could provide some data and maybe some pictures of your guns I would appreciate it. I hope you enjoy the pictures, itÃ¢??s hard to get clear close ups of the various stamps, so I made an effort to show these to you in detail.
The thinning at the bottom of the Royal Navy anchor is not unusual you will find this often on Royal Navy Lugers.
There is increasing evidence that at least a few of the early Portuguese Navy Lugers were delivered out of sequence, this, explaining the overlapping of serial numbers in both directions and the high end numbers of both. Many of these Lugers have been refinished/ restored because of their poor condition; this causes all sorts of speculation/theories. The data you give me on worker marks (usually left untouched) may be useful in this research.

Enjoy

Vern

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 12:16 PM

Picture 2

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 12:16 PM

Picture 3

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 12:17 PM

Picture 4

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 12:18 PM

picture 5

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 12:18 PM

Picture 6

LU1900 · 01-20-2007, 01:39 PM

.........

Heinz · 01-20-2007, 09:48 PM

Very nice honest pistols. THanks for posting. A few more shots would be nice:-)

LugerVern · 01-20-2007, 09:50 PM

Pat

Good question on the correct magazines for these Lugers!

My magazines are not original to the guns, one is early tin plated the other a nickel plated one with no proofs or markings.

The best answer I can give you on what the correct magazines are is to quote from the standard Catalog of LUGER by Aarron Davis copy write 2006.

"Some" Royal NavyÃ¢??s have the script Cal 9mm and are nickel plated, the RP Lugers are nickel plated, neither have serial numbers or others proofs.

(My opinion) The early Portuguese NavyÃ¢??s were issued in 1910 and into 1911; if memory serves, tin and zinc plated magazines started being standard around 1909 so I believe there is a good chance all three types may have been issued with the guns.

Any comments on magazines is welcome, I have not studied them too closely?

Our friends at FGS may be able to shed some more light on the matter, as they were one of the original importers of the Portuguese Navy, it would be interesting to hear what if any magazines came with the guns they imported?

Good luck on finding a Cal9mm magazine, they are few and far between, expensive and many are fakesÃ¢??please be careful who you buy from. Unless you are just dieing to have an original there are reproduction bottoms available that most people can not tell from the originals.

Vern

Dwight Gruber · 01-21-2007, 07:18 AM

Vern,

I recommend being very cautious when doing research in Davis's new book, see the review here http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=standard

I haven't a positive answer for your magazine question, but I suggest that you be very sceptical about the Cal 9m/m base magazine answer.

--Dwight

Imperial Arms · 01-21-2007, 01:37 PM

Hello Vern,

I know for a fact the M1906 Portugese Navy pistols (both models) were issued with wook bottom magazine either with a Portugese 'circle-triangle' proof or 'Cal 9 mm'. My M1906 Portugese Royal Navy rig has a 'circle-triangle' magazine in the pistol and the two spare magazines are marked 'Cal 9 mm'. I hope this information answers your questions.

Congratulations on the pair of Lugers.

Cheers,
Albert

LugerVern · 01-21-2007, 02:28 PM

Dwight:
Thanks for the review reference. I had not seen that link. Yes I agree that the book has some very glaring mistakes that jump at you immediately even at my level of collecting (thatÃ¢??s bad!!!!). I was trying to point out that itÃ¢??s pretty wide open to interpretation as to what magazines are appropriate and even new publications are having trouble explaining it properly.
Lugers at Random talks of the Cal9mm magazines for the Royal Navy also so there is some continuity in the information. Of course you can argue that reference is old and outdated with more than a few mistakes in it as well.
Still that information must have come from some source.
Some collectors think that the Circle Triangle Magazines as possibly appropriate for these guns and are good sources of information.

Albert:

Nice to hear from you again!
For those of you who do not know it, Albert has a beautiful pristine Royal Navy pictured here on this forum along with accessories. A good reference in its own right!

I have some original Circle Triangle Magazines and a couple of reproduction Cal9mm ones; maybe I will just slide them into my guns and be happy until I get a good buy on an original Cal9mm.
However with all respect to everyone I am keeping my early magazines handy Ã¢??just to be sureÃ¢??

Pat asked a very good question though!

Vern

pepe · 01-21-2007, 03:36 PM

I Vern

I have a luger without serial number witch i think is a portuguese RP navy
In did "carregada" is Stamped in the left side of the extractor.In side the gun the number 62 is stamped in several places
You can see the pictures in the Thread " Luger without marks"

best regards from portugal

pepe

LU1900 · 01-22-2007, 05:23 AM

.........

01-20-2007, 12:15 PM	#1
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Two Early Portuguese NavyÃ¢??s I have been hesitant to post pictures of my Portuguese NavyÃ¢??s, all of them have various nicks and dings but I do the best I can on a budget. I know some of you own similar Lugers and I am fishing for information and maybe some pictures of your guns to look at. I am collecting data on the worker marks under the left grip, particularly on the center rail from top to bottom like the picture shown. Very common are FPT, FBT & OKT and others I am sure still not documented. They do not appear to relate to serial number batches as I once hoped, still I like collecting the information so if you could provide some data and maybe some pictures of your guns I would appreciate it. I hope you enjoy the pictures, itÃ¢??s hard to get clear close ups of the various stamps, so I made an effort to show these to you in detail. The thinning at the bottom of the Royal Navy anchor is not unusual you will find this often on Royal Navy Lugers. There is increasing evidence that at least a few of the early Portuguese Navy Lugers were delivered out of sequence, this, explaining the overlapping of serial numbers in both directions and the high end numbers of both. Many of these Lugers have been refinished/ restored because of their poor condition; this causes all sorts of speculation/theories. The data you give me on worker marks (usually left untouched) may be useful in this research. Enjoy Vern

01-20-2007, 01:39 PM	#7
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 41 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

01-22-2007, 05:23 AM	#14
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 908 Thanks: 41 Thanked 469 Times in 197 Posts	......... __________________ Best regards from France...Patrice https://www.fichier-pdf.fr/2016/03/1...nd-snail-drum/

01-20-2007, 12:16 PM	#2
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Picture 2

01-20-2007, 12:17 PM	#4
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Picture 4

01-20-2007, 12:18 PM	#5
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	picture 5

01-20-2007, 09:48 PM	#8
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Very nice honest pistols. THanks for posting. A few more shots would be nice:-)

01-20-2007, 09:50 PM	#9
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Pat Good question on the correct magazines for these Lugers! My magazines are not original to the guns, one is early tin plated the other a nickel plated one with no proofs or markings. The best answer I can give you on what the correct magazines are is to quote from the standard Catalog of LUGER by Aarron Davis copy write 2006. "Some" Royal NavyÃ¢??s have the script Cal 9mm and are nickel plated, the RP Lugers are nickel plated, neither have serial numbers or others proofs. (My opinion) The early Portuguese NavyÃ¢??s were issued in 1910 and into 1911; if memory serves, tin and zinc plated magazines started being standard around 1909 so I believe there is a good chance all three types may have been issued with the guns. Any comments on magazines is welcome, I have not studied them too closely? Our friends at FGS may be able to shed some more light on the matter, as they were one of the original importers of the Portuguese Navy, it would be interesting to hear what if any magazines came with the guns they imported? Good luck on finding a Cal9mm magazine, they are few and far between, expensive and many are fakesÃ¢??please be careful who you buy from. Unless you are just dieing to have an original there are reproduction bottoms available that most people can not tell from the originals. Vern

01-21-2007, 07:18 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,312 Times in 430 Posts	Vern, I recommend being very cautious when doing research in Davis's new book, see the review here http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...light=standard I haven't a positive answer for your magazine question, but I suggest that you be very sceptical about the Cal 9m/m base magazine answer. --Dwight

01-21-2007, 01:37 PM	#11
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Vern, I know for a fact the M1906 Portugese Navy pistols (both models) were issued with wook bottom magazine either with a Portugese 'circle-triangle' proof or 'Cal 9 mm'. My M1906 Portugese Royal Navy rig has a 'circle-triangle' magazine in the pistol and the two spare magazines are marked 'Cal 9 mm'. I hope this information answers your questions. Congratulations on the pair of Lugers. Cheers, Albert

01-21-2007, 02:28 PM	#12
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Dwight: Thanks for the review reference. I had not seen that link. Yes I agree that the book has some very glaring mistakes that jump at you immediately even at my level of collecting (thatÃ¢??s bad!!!!). I was trying to point out that itÃ¢??s pretty wide open to interpretation as to what magazines are appropriate and even new publications are having trouble explaining it properly. Lugers at Random talks of the Cal9mm magazines for the Royal Navy also so there is some continuity in the information. Of course you can argue that reference is old and outdated with more than a few mistakes in it as well. Still that information must have come from some source. Some collectors think that the Circle Triangle Magazines as possibly appropriate for these guns and are good sources of information. Albert: Nice to hear from you again! For those of you who do not know it, Albert has a beautiful pristine Royal Navy pictured here on this forum along with accessories. A good reference in its own right! I have some original Circle Triangle Magazines and a couple of reproduction Cal9mm ones; maybe I will just slide them into my guns and be happy until I get a good buy on an original Cal9mm. However with all respect to everyone I am keeping my early magazines handy Ã¢??just to be sureÃ¢?? Pat asked a very good question though! Vern

01-21-2007, 03:36 PM	#13
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I Vern I have a luger without serial number witch i think is a portuguese RP navy In did "carregada" is Stamped in the left side of the extractor.In side the gun the number 62 is stamped in several places You can see the pictures in the Thread " Luger without marks" best regards from portugal pepe