Ron Wood - Test Eagle # 6651

Pete Ebbink · 11-02-2006, 12:37 PM

Hi Ron,

Some photos of a TE # 6651 on the RIA auction house site; which you have on your list already :

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=39&iid=191192

Ron Wood · 11-02-2006, 12:53 PM

Thanks Pete, it is always good to record condition in the data base and I do not often get a chance to see the guns. Too bad about the safety markings, although it isn't terribly distracting. I would think there is a very special warm place in the afterlife for the guy that invented the electropencil.

Pete Ebbink · 11-02-2006, 02:28 PM

Another one all cased-up with a holster is TE # 6413...that one is on your and Reese' original list as well :

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=39&iid=189584

The auction write-up on this one says "13" is on the left side of the TD lever. I assume in the commercial style as you cannot see it on the photo of the left side of the gun. Probably it lost its original with the "13" on the right side and someone "force matched" another TD lever (???).

Ron Wood · 11-02-2006, 03:31 PM

Curious. The ad says "the presence of some light pitting on the frame above the thumb safety lever indicates the pistol has been arsenal refurbished as writer has seen this on other U.S. Test Lugers". What arsenal? I am unaware of any US arsenal, Rock Island or Springfield, refurbishment of Test Lugers and I am sure they weren't sent back to DWM for refurb. Possibly Waffenfabrik USA arsenal? Anyway, the "13" on the left side of the TD and the evidence of refinish over pitting makes this "mint" example suspicious.

I was also very interested in the document in the case that indicates "Report No, 9242 on Luger No. 6413 1 of 5 issued to Capt. White, 11 Cavalry Fort Ethan Allen, Vt. Nov 7, 1901". I wonder where that information came from? I have always been under the impression that the only Lugers that were identified by serial number as being issued to a specific unit were the 5 reported by 2nd Lt. Orlando G. Palmer, 7th Cavalry, Cuba in his test report.

Nice holster though.

Pete Ebbink · 11-02-2006, 04:34 PM

Report posting :

John Sabato · 11-02-2006, 05:32 PM

A very interesting piece of paper... I wonder where the designs at the top and bottom that are obviously not part of the report, but have been inserted into the frame came from?

Heinz · 11-02-2006, 05:59 PM

This document was especially prepared by Hans Tauscher when he was thinking of going over to Colt. Very rare and desirable.

Interesting how many shots on flesh the Captain had in Vermont.

Don M · 11-02-2006, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Teat Eagle

Freudian slip?

Pete Ebbink · 11-04-2006, 01:29 PM

According to M. Reese in his 1st. edition of his book "U.S. Test Trials 1900 Luger" on page 27 :

"...They were received in two shipment: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols..."

How would it have been possible for someone to write a report on Nov. 7, 1901 about how the guns performed when they were received only a week prior to the report date ???

I would imagine the Lugers stayed at the (Rock Island Arsenal (Correction on 11-5-06 : Springfield Armory) for some time waiting to be matched up to the 1,000 holsters and then eventually distributed to various active military units for field tests. The holsters did not even get made and shipped out until January 1902.

The other Tests reports Reese metions in his book are dated from late 1902 and even 1903.

So here is a recap of the auction offering :

1. A bougs "report" of the Tests.

2. A holster that appears to be a early repro when El Paso Saddlery was not adding their name embossed on the back of the holster.

3. A pretty modern-looking case.

4. And a luger that has been boggered with, somwhat...

Geeze...Louise...

drbuster · 11-04-2006, 07:43 PM

Good call, Pete, especially if the facts, as you stated them, are correct.

Pete Ebbink · 11-05-2006, 03:19 PM

Doc,

Dates are from M. Reese' research and he even has copies of some of the dated documents in his book.

Just more phony-baloney stuff being peddled to the unsuspecting.

Dwight Gruber · 11-05-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
[B]According to M. Reese in his 1st. edition of his book "U.S. Test Trials 1900 Luger" on page 27 :

"...They were received in two shipment: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols..."

How would it have been possible for someone to write a report on Nov. 7, 1901 about how the guns performed when they were received only a week prior to the report date ???B]

The paper with this gun is ambiguous, and subject to misreading. The documents reproduced in Reese show that pistols were -shipped- to the 11th Cavalry at Fort Ethan Allen on Nov. 7, 1901.

This is indeed Capt. White's (Troop E) report. The reproduction in Reese is part of a summary report, so there is no date attached.

The pistol number in the report is, of course, a complete fabrication.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 11-05-2006, 04:42 PM

Dwight,

What page (s) in Reese are you referencing ?

On page 40 of my hardback, 1st. edition, Reese writes "...In 1902 and 1903, the test reports began to trickle in...".

On page 27, Reese summarizes that "...the pistols and magazines....were shipped to Governor Island, New York....in two shipments: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols. Shortly after their arrival, they were sent to the Springfield Armory for official acceptance by the Army. Springfield Armory distributed them as follow..."

I cannot fathom any of the commanding officers of 185 troops of cavelry receiving any of the lugers as early as Nov. 7, 1901; let alone be able to make some conclusions about the adequacy of the guns as this "report' seems to indicate.

Also, if the RI holsters did not arrive until Jan 1902, how effective would the field-trials have been if your men where not able to draw the lugers from the holsters while standing or riding a horse. I would think a commander would consider the holster an important part of the field-trials.

Dwight Gruber · 11-05-2006, 05:49 PM

Pete,

Its p.97 of the softbound revised edition. It is a reproduction of the document, "List Of Troops Of U.S. Cavalry, to the Commanding Officer Of Each Of Which 5 Luger Pistols Have Been Shipped, On the Dates and to the Places specified."

The first entry is November 7, 1901, to Fort Ethan Allen. There are also shipping dates of November 9, November 12, and November 19 to other destinations, accounting for 900 pistols. Reese notes that the remaining 100 guns were the ones retained at Springfield Armory.

Capt. White's summary report is found on p.100.

The ambiguity of being able to read the framed document as the report date, rather than the issue date, is what is misleading.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 11-05-2006, 07:52 PM

Thanks, Dwight...

My 1st. edition hardback book stops at page 92 and I cannot find the documents you refer to. Reese must have added more with his 2nd. edition.

Pete Ebbink · 11-06-2006, 11:13 AM

Hi Ron,

On the US Test holsters, there is usually some lettering near the bottom tip of the closure flap. Initials of "EHS"...one of the inspectors.

I don't think I see that on this holster offering by the RIA auction house, but maybe it is there and the photo did not pick up the detail (???) :

Photo of a TE holster from Albert Beliard's web site :

Ron Wood · 11-06-2006, 12:33 PM

Hi Pete,
The RIA ad says the holster has "a faint three-letter inspector's stamp on the bottom on the flap", but I can't see it in the photo unless I really use my imagination. The ad goes on to say that it is marked "E.H.S." on the back under the Rock Island Arsenal stamp, which is correct.
My holster is stamped "P.G." upside down on the bottom of the flap, with the RIA/EHS stamp on the back. I can't read Albert's holster stamp but you can definitely tell there are some initials there.

Pete Ebbink · 11-29-2006, 09:03 PM

Here are a couple of photos of a nice repro Test holster the El Paso Saddlery folks made initially, before they added their company logo to the back :

11-02-2006, 12:37 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Ron Wood - Test Eagle # 6651 Hi Ron, Some photos of a TE # 6651 on the RIA auction house site; which you have on your list already : http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=39&iid=191192

11-02-2006, 12:53 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Thanks Pete, it is always good to record condition in the data base and I do not often get a chance to see the guns. Too bad about the safety markings, although it isn't terribly distracting. I would think there is a very special warm place in the afterlife for the guy that invented the electropencil. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-02-2006, 03:31 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Curious. The ad says "the presence of some light pitting on the frame above the thumb safety lever indicates the pistol has been arsenal refurbished as writer has seen this on other U.S. Test Lugers". What arsenal? I am unaware of any US arsenal, Rock Island or Springfield, refurbishment of Test Lugers and I am sure they weren't sent back to DWM for refurb. Possibly Waffenfabrik USA arsenal? Anyway, the "13" on the left side of the TD and the evidence of refinish over pitting makes this "mint" example suspicious. I was also very interested in the document in the case that indicates "Report No, 9242 on Luger No. 6413 1 of 5 issued to Capt. White, 11 Cavalry Fort Ethan Allen, Vt. Nov 7, 1901". I wonder where that information came from? I have always been under the impression that the only Lugers that were identified by serial number as being issued to a specific unit were the 5 reported by 2nd Lt. Orlando G. Palmer, 7th Cavalry, Cuba in his test report. Nice holster though. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-02-2006, 05:32 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	A very interesting piece of paper... I wonder where the designs at the top and bottom that are obviously not part of the report, but have been inserted into the frame came from? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-06-2006, 12:33 PM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Hi Pete, The RIA ad says the holster has "a faint three-letter inspector's stamp on the bottom on the flap", but I can't see it in the photo unless I really use my imagination. The ad goes on to say that it is marked "E.H.S." on the back under the Rock Island Arsenal stamp, which is correct. My holster is stamped "P.G." upside down on the bottom of the flap, with the RIA/EHS stamp on the back. I can't read Albert's holster stamp but you can definitely tell there are some initials there. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-02-2006, 02:28 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Another one all cased-up with a holster is TE # 6413...that one is on your and Reese' original list as well : http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=39&iid=189584 The auction write-up on this one says "13" is on the left side of the TD lever. I assume in the commercial style as you cannot see it on the photo of the left side of the gun. Probably it lost its original with the "13" on the right side and someone "force matched" another TD lever (???).

11-02-2006, 04:34 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Report posting :

11-02-2006, 05:59 PM	#7
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	This document was especially prepared by Hans Tauscher when he was thinking of going over to Colt. Very rare and desirable. Interesting how many shots on flesh the Captain had in Vermont.

11-04-2006, 01:29 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	According to M. Reese in his 1st. edition of his book "U.S. Test Trials 1900 Luger" on page 27 : "...They were received in two shipment: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols..." How would it have been possible for someone to write a report on Nov. 7, 1901 about how the guns performed when they were received only a week prior to the report date ??? I would imagine the Lugers stayed at the (Rock Island Arsenal (Correction on 11-5-06 : Springfield Armory) for some time waiting to be matched up to the 1,000 holsters and then eventually distributed to various active military units for field tests. The holsters did not even get made and shipped out until January 1902. The other Tests reports Reese metions in his book are dated from late 1902 and even 1903. So here is a recap of the auction offering : 1. A bougs "report" of the Tests. 2. A holster that appears to be a early repro when El Paso Saddlery was not adding their name embossed on the back of the holster. 3. A pretty modern-looking case. 4. And a luger that has been boggered with, somwhat... Geeze...Louise...

11-04-2006, 07:43 PM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Good call, Pete, especially if the facts, as you stated them, are correct.

11-05-2006, 03:19 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Doc, Dates are from M. Reese' research and he even has copies of some of the dated documents in his book. Just more phony-baloney stuff being peddled to the unsuspecting.

11-05-2006, 04:42 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Dwight, What page (s) in Reese are you referencing ? On page 40 of my hardback, 1st. edition, Reese writes "...In 1902 and 1903, the test reports began to trickle in...". On page 27, Reese summarizes that "...the pistols and magazines....were shipped to Governor Island, New York....in two shipments: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols. Shortly after their arrival, they were sent to the Springfield Armory for official acceptance by the Army. Springfield Armory distributed them as follow..." I cannot fathom any of the commanding officers of 185 troops of cavelry receiving any of the lugers as early as Nov. 7, 1901; let alone be able to make some conclusions about the adequacy of the guns as this "report' seems to indicate. Also, if the RI holsters did not arrive until Jan 1902, how effective would the field-trials have been if your men where not able to draw the lugers from the holsters while standing or riding a horse. I would think a commander would consider the holster an important part of the field-trials.

11-05-2006, 05:49 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pete, Its p.97 of the softbound revised edition. It is a reproduction of the document, "List Of Troops Of U.S. Cavalry, to the Commanding Officer Of Each Of Which 5 Luger Pistols Have Been Shipped, On the Dates and to the Places specified." The first entry is November 7, 1901, to Fort Ethan Allen. There are also shipping dates of November 9, November 12, and November 19 to other destinations, accounting for 900 pistols. Reese notes that the remaining 100 guns were the ones retained at Springfield Armory. Capt. White's summary report is found on p.100. The ambiguity of being able to read the framed document as the report date, rather than the issue date, is what is misleading. --Dwight

11-05-2006, 07:52 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Dwight... My 1st. edition hardback book stops at page 92 and I cannot find the documents you refer to. Reese must have added more with his 2nd. edition.

11-06-2006, 11:13 AM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Ron, On the US Test holsters, there is usually some lettering near the bottom tip of the closure flap. Initials of "EHS"...one of the inspectors. I don't think I see that on this holster offering by the RIA auction house, but maybe it is there and the photo did not pick up the detail (???) : Photo of a TE holster from Albert Beliard's web site :

11-29-2006, 09:03 PM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here are a couple of photos of a nice repro Test holster the El Paso Saddlery folks made initially, before they added their company logo to the back :