Strange symbol on underside of barrel

marhaben · 02-20-2006, 09:40 PM

This symbol, which looks a lot like an ankh, or coptic cross, appears only here on the pistol. At first I thought it may have been a serial block marker, but all the other serial markings bear no letters. No one else I've spoken to seems to know what this means.

Doug G. · 02-20-2006, 11:39 PM

Looks to be the letter "F". If you look around this site you will find the letter types used in Luger production.

Strider · 02-21-2006, 02:12 PM

Hi Phil, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of usefull information that can be found under the technical information section of the forum. Click on that link and click on markings. There you will find a photo essay that Ed created. Click on the link and then select the F-H section. Take a look at those photos and see if they match up with your suffix.

Sid.

marhaben · 02-21-2006, 04:14 PM

They look similar, but my "f" is differently shaped, and appears to be in a different spot than the picture shows. My P-08 is an S/42, and my picture does not appear to match up with the "f" listed for S/42 makes. It does, however, more closely resemble the '???????' picture on the same page, but again is in a different spot.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I have been looking around the information sections, which are wonderfully detailed, and determined for sure that it is a military production model from the Mauser factory, built in 1942. I can't seem to find information on the crossed swords that sppear on the left-hand side. I was told it is a Russian capture mark, yet the gun still has all of its Nazi markings and was supposedly captured by an American GI in Bavaria. So that is another little mystery that has cropped up.

Ron Wood · 02-21-2006, 05:56 PM

The mark is a script lower case "f" and it is part of the serial number. i.e. the full serial number is 6267f. Don't put too much importance on minor details in the shape of the "f" stamps. Different dies were used throughout Luger production, so you will see slight differences in the script. Photos of the "crossed swords" would be useful. Most likely it is an "X" which is found on Russian capture Lugers, but who knows? GI bring back stories often get embellished over time.

marhaben · 02-21-2006, 08:29 PM

Here is a pic of the crossed swords. Its a tad grainy, but in person the hilts are clearly visible.

Doug G. · 02-21-2006, 11:48 PM

That is a Russian capture mark. Look your pistol over good and you should find the importers mark as well. Also looks like repro grips as well. May want to consider the group buy on Nills. A bit expensive, but very high quality

marhaben · 02-22-2006, 02:01 AM

I was under the impression that the Russians removed the Swastikas from captured German weapons, though. They certainly did to most of them on my Kar98.

I was told the grips are original too, and have seen photos of brown originals before. Is there a way to tell?

And what exactly is a "Black Widow"?

Herb · 02-22-2006, 11:35 AM

I have two of these Russian capture Lugers, both have the X and both have import marks, and all German marks are present. I would like to see more of the grips to be sure but on the little that is visible the checkering appears a bit too big. There might be numbers or acceptance stamping marks of the back of the grips but their absence does not necessarily mean they are not original. Please post some photos of them. A black widow Luger is a byf 41 or 42 Luger with black plastic grips and a magazine with the black plastic bottom. Actually there is no such thing. The term was coined by one of the top Luger collectors and dealer, Ralph Shattuck as a marketing ploy. Prior to his naming them that they did not exist other than as another Luger with those features. These are often faked. It sure worked as they do bring a premium dollar for some reason.

Stu · 02-22-2006, 07:43 PM

Check out the fit of the grips around the sideplate. Original grips will follow the contour of the cut out on the bottom of the sideplate. I believe the pair fitted are Sarco / Numrich et al Indian imports. Strange they fit so poorly in that area, it doesn't seem it would be that difficult to extend the top corner ?

saxman · 04-12-2006, 11:09 PM

Yes, Stu nailed the grips. They make them that way because the right grip is shaped like that and it's easier to match corners than make them differently as they should be. That little curve really ruins those grips for me, and I can't even use them for shooting. It just looks wrong.
Marhaben; Believe these guys about the markings on your gun. They're right. Even I knew it.

02-20-2006, 09:40 PM	#1
marhaben User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oxford, OH Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Strange symbol on underside of barrel This symbol, which looks a lot like an ankh, or coptic cross, appears only here on the pistol. At first I thought it may have been a serial block marker, but all the other serial markings bear no letters. No one else I've spoken to seems to know what this means.

02-20-2006, 11:39 PM	#2
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	Looks to be the letter "F". If you look around this site you will find the letter types used in Luger production. __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

02-21-2006, 02:12 PM	#3
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Phil, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of usefull information that can be found under the technical information section of the forum. Click on that link and click on markings. There you will find a photo essay that Ed created. Click on the link and then select the F-H section. Take a look at those photos and see if they match up with your suffix. Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

02-21-2006, 05:56 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The mark is a script lower case "f" and it is part of the serial number. i.e. the full serial number is 6267f. Don't put too much importance on minor details in the shape of the "f" stamps. Different dies were used throughout Luger production, so you will see slight differences in the script. Photos of the "crossed swords" would be useful. Most likely it is an "X" which is found on Russian capture Lugers, but who knows? GI bring back stories often get embellished over time. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-21-2006, 11:48 PM	#7
Doug G. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Illinois Posts: 713 Thanks: 1 Thanked 53 Times in 17 Posts	That is a Russian capture mark. Look your pistol over good and you should find the importers mark as well. Also looks like repro grips as well. May want to consider the group buy on Nills. A bit expensive, but very high quality __________________ Suppose you were an idiot.....and suppose you were a member of Congress.....But I repeat myself" ~~ Mark Twain

02-21-2006, 04:14 PM	#4
marhaben User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oxford, OH Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	They look similar, but my "f" is differently shaped, and appears to be in a different spot than the picture shows. My P-08 is an S/42, and my picture does not appear to match up with the "f" listed for S/42 makes. It does, however, more closely resemble the '???????' picture on the same page, but again is in a different spot. EDIT: On a sidenote, I have been looking around the information sections, which are wonderfully detailed, and determined for sure that it is a military production model from the Mauser factory, built in 1942. I can't seem to find information on the crossed swords that sppear on the left-hand side. I was told it is a Russian capture mark, yet the gun still has all of its Nazi markings and was supposedly captured by an American GI in Bavaria. So that is another little mystery that has cropped up.

02-21-2006, 08:29 PM	#6
marhaben User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oxford, OH Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is a pic of the crossed swords. Its a tad grainy, but in person the hilts are clearly visible.

02-22-2006, 02:01 AM	#8
marhaben User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oxford, OH Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I was under the impression that the Russians removed the Swastikas from captured German weapons, though. They certainly did to most of them on my Kar98. I was told the grips are original too, and have seen photos of brown originals before. Is there a way to tell? And what exactly is a "Black Widow"?

02-22-2006, 11:35 AM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have two of these Russian capture Lugers, both have the X and both have import marks, and all German marks are present. I would like to see more of the grips to be sure but on the little that is visible the checkering appears a bit too big. There might be numbers or acceptance stamping marks of the back of the grips but their absence does not necessarily mean they are not original. Please post some photos of them. A black widow Luger is a byf 41 or 42 Luger with black plastic grips and a magazine with the black plastic bottom. Actually there is no such thing. The term was coined by one of the top Luger collectors and dealer, Ralph Shattuck as a marketing ploy. Prior to his naming them that they did not exist other than as another Luger with those features. These are often faked. It sure worked as they do bring a premium dollar for some reason. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

02-22-2006, 07:43 PM	#10
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 451 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Check out the fit of the grips around the sideplate. Original grips will follow the contour of the cut out on the bottom of the sideplate. I believe the pair fitted are Sarco / Numrich et al Indian imports. Strange they fit so poorly in that area, it doesn't seem it would be that difficult to extend the top corner ?

04-12-2006, 11:09 PM	#11
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yes, Stu nailed the grips. They make them that way because the right grip is shaped like that and it's easier to match corners than make them differently as they should be. That little curve really ruins those grips for me, and I can't even use them for shooting. It just looks wrong. Marhaben; Believe these guys about the markings on your gun. They're right. Even I knew it. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.