Word "Revolver" Used to Describe German Handguns

max2cam · 03-09-2003, 11:55 AM

The use of the term "revolver" has long dismayed and troubled me when reading English works that mention German handguns. I think we will all agree that P.08 translates into "Pistole (model) 1908" -- and NOT "Revolver (model) 1908."

However, there is still argument over this subject. I have had guys come back at me when I pointed out this apparent incorrect usage of "revolver" by English writers, that perhaps the German under discussion really did have a revolver. Perhaps he was armed with an old Reichs Revolver or a captured U.S. or Brit revolver. Getting at the entire truth was impossible.

However, I just finished reading an older English translation (1996 reprint) of Ernst Jueger's book: "The Storm of Steel" that describes his frontline service in the Reichswehr during the First World War. Here are some interesting quotes from the work that shed light on the question of what type of handgun (revolver or semi-auto pistol) that Jueger was using:

First off: The book contains many references to revolvers in the hands of German troops. Here is one example:

p.104: "...more than once I surprised myself with my finger on the trigger of my revolver."

Here we see the problem once again. Just what does this German have his hand on? It says revolver as plain as day. But is it a revolver?

Possibly not. Read this:

p.196: "I was in full array: two sandbags in front of my chest, each with four stick bombs, the left-hand one having instantaneous, the right-hand with time fuses; in the right-hand pocket of my tunic I had an 08 revolver on a long cord; in my right trouser pocket a small Mauser pistol; in my left tunic pocket five egg bombs; in the left trouser pocket a phosphorescent compass and a policeman's whistle; in my belt spring books for pulling out the spring pins; a dagger, and wire-cutters."

Oh, but perhaps you say that I'm reading this wrong, because he calls the Mauser (M1910?) a "pistol," so perhaps the "08" is NOT what I think it is (a P.08 Luger), but some sort of "08" model revolver. Perhaps an 8mm revolver you say?

Impossible. Read this revelation:

p.89: "At the first shot the magazine of my revolver dropped out, and I stood shouting at an Englishman who squeezed himself closer and closer against the barbed wire."

That clinches it for me. Revolvers do NOT have magazines that drop out. This tells me that the reader CANNOT trust any book that contains the word "revolver" when describing German handguns.

Since I don't have the original German source in front of me, I don't know what German word for handgun was used in this book. It is strange that "revolver" then "pistol" appears in the same sentence. But I can state with certainty that whoever started this mess of calling a semi-pistol a "revolver" should be hanged. It is a small but grave error that ruins historical accuracy. For me, it somewhat ruined what otherwise is a great book because I can't help but flinch everytime the term "revolver" is used. The word revolver does NOT conjuer up the image of a Luger and that's what it should be.

One more item:

p.262: "No quarter was given. The English hastened with upstretched arms through the first wave of storm troops to the rear, where the fury of the battle had not reached boiling point. An orderly of Gipkens' shot a good dozen or more with his 32 repeater."

Is this a Luger snail-drum in use here?

Excellent book. Best treatment of WWI that I have ever read.

Vlim · 03-10-2003, 09:01 AM

Hi,

In the Dutch language people tend to use both 'revolver' and 'pistool' when referring to handguns. Usually not taking into account which is which, so I'm not surprised this happened in the German language as well.

In German the handgun (automatic, flint, revolving, etc..) is referred to as 'pistole' by default, with the exception that the selfloaders were called 'Selbstlade pistole' to separate them from the rest. Since this description doesn't work well in daily use (too long) I wouldn't be surprised if people switched to another 'popular'(english/trench 1914ish) description of the handgun. Borrowing 'popular' words from other languages is not uncommon.

(jeep, tank, jerrycan are still perfectly acceptable dutch words)

unspellable · 03-11-2003, 08:42 AM

max2cam, this has no bearing whatsoever on your argument, but the Dardick revolver has a magazine, so there is such a thing as a revolver with a magazine.

I guess the lesson here is that no matter how off the wall the concept, there is some obscure friearm somewhere that employed it.

The Dardick once saw very limited production as a handgun. The action principal has gone on to be employed in a motor driven 20 mm machine gun for use in aircraft. I've not heard that it has progressed much beyond the developemental stage, although it appears to work quite well. (And yes, it is a revolver, not a Gatling, operates with one barrel, although I think a blend of the Gatling and Dardick would be interesting, spreads out the barrel heating effects.)

As for use of the various terms, we mangle them badly enough in the English speaking context, without dragging in the complication of translation from German. We call self loaders or semi-autos automatics, we call a self cocking lock a double action only lock, (a prime example of an oxymoron), and there is the old bit about the automatic revolver, when the object under discussion is very obviously not a Webley-Fosberry. We call rifles guns, and probably with malice aforethought, the anti gun crowd calls anything with quasi military cosmetics an assault rifle.

max2cam · 03-11-2003, 12:03 PM

Yeah, I was gonna say: Wasn't the Dardik bullet triangular or something? I do remember it...

I guess my point is that it's not only historically inaccurate to call what must be Lugers "revolvers", but I find it personally irritating because the image I summon up is a German soldier with an Enfield revolver or something when they use the wrong word...

I guess maybe us gun freaks are too critical...

unspellable · 03-11-2003, 01:32 PM

tacfoley, you appear to be more up to date than I am on the later use of Dardick's ideas. Were any or all of the aircraft guns you mention "open chambered"? And which were true revolvers and whcih were Gatlings? I'd suppose the open chamber concept would work with either. I have seen a single chambered machine gun with provision for quick changing barrels in a rotary carrier. If the aircraft gun is a true revolver one could rotate barrels in front of the firing position for the sake of distrubuting barrel heat. Probably the primary advantage of the modern Gatling. Probably simpler to use an open chambered Gatling.

The original Dardick had two types of "trounds". The first was an aluminum piece that took primer, powder, and bullet in the manner of most cartridge cases aside from its three sided shape and thicker walls. The second type was a three sided plastic sabot into which was inserted a conventional 38 Special round. I presume that is what you have.

03-09-2003, 11:55 AM	#1
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Word "Revolver" Used to Describe German Handguns The use of the term "revolver" has long dismayed and troubled me when reading English works that mention German handguns. I think we will all agree that P.08 translates into "Pistole (model) 1908" -- and NOT "Revolver (model) 1908." However, there is still argument over this subject. I have had guys come back at me when I pointed out this apparent incorrect usage of "revolver" by English writers, that perhaps the German under discussion really did have a revolver. Perhaps he was armed with an old Reichs Revolver or a captured U.S. or Brit revolver. Getting at the entire truth was impossible. However, I just finished reading an older English translation (1996 reprint) of Ernst Jueger's book: "The Storm of Steel" that describes his frontline service in the Reichswehr during the First World War. Here are some interesting quotes from the work that shed light on the question of what type of handgun (revolver or semi-auto pistol) that Jueger was using: First off: The book contains many references to revolvers in the hands of German troops. Here is one example: p.104: "...more than once I surprised myself with my finger on the trigger of my revolver." Here we see the problem once again. Just what does this German have his hand on? It says revolver as plain as day. But is it a revolver? Possibly not. Read this: p.196: "I was in full array: two sandbags in front of my chest, each with four stick bombs, the left-hand one having instantaneous, the right-hand with time fuses; in the right-hand pocket of my tunic I had an 08 revolver on a long cord; in my right trouser pocket a small Mauser pistol; in my left tunic pocket five egg bombs; in the left trouser pocket a phosphorescent compass and a policeman's whistle; in my belt spring books for pulling out the spring pins; a dagger, and wire-cutters." Oh, but perhaps you say that I'm reading this wrong, because he calls the Mauser (M1910?) a "pistol," so perhaps the "08" is NOT what I think it is (a P.08 Luger), but some sort of "08" model revolver. Perhaps an 8mm revolver you say? Impossible. Read this revelation: p.89: "At the first shot the magazine of my revolver dropped out, and I stood shouting at an Englishman who squeezed himself closer and closer against the barbed wire." That clinches it for me. Revolvers do NOT have magazines that drop out. This tells me that the reader CANNOT trust any book that contains the word "revolver" when describing German handguns. Since I don't have the original German source in front of me, I don't know what German word for handgun was used in this book. It is strange that "revolver" then "pistol" appears in the same sentence. But I can state with certainty that whoever started this mess of calling a semi-pistol a "revolver" should be hanged. It is a small but grave error that ruins historical accuracy. For me, it somewhat ruined what otherwise is a great book because I can't help but flinch everytime the term "revolver" is used. The word revolver does NOT conjuer up the image of a Luger and that's what it should be. One more item: p.262: "No quarter was given. The English hastened with upstretched arms through the first wave of storm troops to the rear, where the fury of the battle had not reached boiling point. An orderly of Gipkens' shot a good dozen or more with his 32 repeater." Is this a Luger snail-drum in use here? Excellent book. Best treatment of WWI that I have ever read.

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03-10-2003, 09:01 AM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, In the Dutch language people tend to use both 'revolver' and 'pistool' when referring to handguns. Usually not taking into account which is which, so I'm not surprised this happened in the German language as well. In German the handgun (automatic, flint, revolving, etc..) is referred to as 'pistole' by default, with the exception that the selfloaders were called 'Selbstlade pistole' to separate them from the rest. Since this description doesn't work well in daily use (too long) I wouldn't be surprised if people switched to another 'popular'(english/trench 1914ish) description of the handgun. Borrowing 'popular' words from other languages is not uncommon. (jeep, tank, jerrycan are still perfectly acceptable dutch words)

03-11-2003, 08:42 AM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	max2cam, this has no bearing whatsoever on your argument, but the Dardick revolver has a magazine, so there is such a thing as a revolver with a magazine. I guess the lesson here is that no matter how off the wall the concept, there is some obscure friearm somewhere that employed it. The Dardick once saw very limited production as a handgun. The action principal has gone on to be employed in a motor driven 20 mm machine gun for use in aircraft. I've not heard that it has progressed much beyond the developemental stage, although it appears to work quite well. (And yes, it is a revolver, not a Gatling, operates with one barrel, although I think a blend of the Gatling and Dardick would be interesting, spreads out the barrel heating effects.) As for use of the various terms, we mangle them badly enough in the English speaking context, without dragging in the complication of translation from German. We call self loaders or semi-autos automatics, we call a self cocking lock a double action only lock, (a prime example of an oxymoron), and there is the old bit about the automatic revolver, when the object under discussion is very obviously not a Webley-Fosberry. We call rifles guns, and probably with malice aforethought, the anti gun crowd calls anything with quasi military cosmetics an assault rifle.

03-11-2003, 12:03 PM	#4
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yeah, I was gonna say: Wasn't the Dardik bullet triangular or something? I do remember it... I guess my point is that it's not only historically inaccurate to call what must be Lugers "revolvers", but I find it personally irritating because the image I summon up is a German soldier with an Enfield revolver or something when they use the wrong word... I guess maybe us gun freaks are too critical...

03-11-2003, 01:32 PM	#5
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	tacfoley, you appear to be more up to date than I am on the later use of Dardick's ideas. Were any or all of the aircraft guns you mention "open chambered"? And which were true revolvers and whcih were Gatlings? I'd suppose the open chamber concept would work with either. I have seen a single chambered machine gun with provision for quick changing barrels in a rotary carrier. If the aircraft gun is a true revolver one could rotate barrels in front of the firing position for the sake of distrubuting barrel heat. Probably the primary advantage of the modern Gatling. Probably simpler to use an open chambered Gatling. The original Dardick had two types of "trounds". The first was an aluminum piece that took primer, powder, and bullet in the manner of most cartridge cases aside from its three sided shape and thicker walls. The second type was a three sided plastic sabot into which was inserted a conventional 38 Special round. I presume that is what you have.