My friend erma

[Shadowsix]

No I'm not talking about a stereotypical ditzy blond from the old film & tv show but an ERMA La 22 I acquired just recently and took to the range today.

Considering all that I've read here and on many other sites I got very very lucky in the one I bought (amazingly almost lotto winning lucky!)! I took it to the range this morning and except for a couple of no load actuations (literally the first two shots) it ran flawlessly through 125 rounds without a jam or any other type of firing issue (I kid you not!).

I did follow David Parker's (ithacaartist) advice to the letter and disassembled it and cleaned it thoroughly & oiled it liberally. I also only ran subsonic (SK Pistol Match) & CCI Minimags through it which my range carried. You'll see from the pic below of the ammo & it's box the SK Pistol Match is just lead but is oiled, I ran these first because they were subsonic 40 grain. The first 2 actuated the togle but did not load another round, after that it ran flawlessly for the rest of my stay! I only loaded 5 rounds in what is a 10 round magazine that first time after that I was loading 10 and then unloading them into what was accuracy that riveled my Springfield 1911-A1 with it's Kimber 22 Coversion slide & mag. My 1911 in that configuration loves only high velocity (seen in the pic below) as Kimber recommends & it works well but accuracy wise this 47 year old Erma puts it to SHAME! Not quite as good as a Ruger MKIII but very respectable!

OK it's not a Luger as my 1917 DWM that I have but the similarity in size, feel & has a good level in similarity in look I am happy with my purchase! Funny enough it actually also came with a holster (I'll take a pic of it & put it up) that I guess came with them. The holster does have an extra mag pouch but they only had one mag left but it is a good one, pictured on the left below. The one on the right is one I purchased from Bob's Gun Shop online but I'm going to have to send it back because even though it looks very similar it wont even go all the way in and I'm certainly not going to force it!

[ithacaartist]

Congratulations Ross!

Sounds like you have a keeper, great luck in finding this cooperative individual. Since I last posted Erma stuff, I've acquired a KGP 69. I'm impressed at how cute it is; the little dickens even has a real holdopen and its exterior lines are quite a bit truer to the original Luger. And it works a little better than my La.22's.

If the sub sonics work with yours, stick with those, for sure, to be easiest on your pistol's action. The evidence of over-hammering will appear on the rear toggle's inner curve, which is pounded by the breech block being thrown back with too much oomph; and on the front toggle link, where over-folding of the joint puts marks on the toggle from contacting the breech block. If ammunition with enough power to leave these artifacts on the mechanism is used further, it will spall the rear link in the area noted, and will likely tear the front toggle link into three pieces by ripping the link from the bottom, where it is thinnest/weakest, right up to those contact marks.

My trials with different .22 loads have continued to the extent that Remington Target and CCI Tactical, at 1150 and 1200 fps respectively, have helped my La.22's the most. I'm due for another stint at mag lip alignment, once I have the factory mag alignment mandrel I'm after, in attempt to improve their function beyond about the 85-90% reliability I've coaxed them into at this point.
My ET.22, mechanically a brother to the EP.22, is a bit more forgiving; it digested 40 Wolf Match Target (1050 fps) with only a handful of failures with 10/10 function for one mag. I'm sticking with 40 gr for all these trials.

David Parker

[rhuff]

Glad to hear that you got your Erma running good. They can be a bit of a PITA sometimes, but when everything is correct, like the P08, they will function. I agree with David in that I would avoid shooting the high velocity(CCI MiniMags etc) ammo in that pistol. They were not designed around that ammo, and it will accelerate the wear leading to breakage. I am amazed that you Erma will run on subsonic ammo. My 2 Ermas totally refuse to even think about functioning on that ammo....Enjoy!!

[mlmahon]

The magazine on the right looks to be for a Stoeger 22 caliber Luger.

-ML

[Shadowsix]

Thanks David & rhuff! Don't worry I have no intention of using any high velocity in the Erma, just the subsonic & CCI minimags.

I didn't even try them in it at the range yesterday, only the Kimber .22LR conversion for my 1911 gets the HVs (as Kimber recommends).


Thank you Myron! I will pose that to Bob's Gun Shop as the potential issue with the mag they sold me!

Below are the pics of the holster that came with it, nothing special but cool they even made the effort to make those for it.

[Shadowsix]

Now considering what rhuff said about his Ermas not functioning on subsonics (and mine seemed delighted with them) perhaps I should elaborate on the "oiling" of my Erma.

Maybe rhuff, David & others are already doing this with theirs but when it comes to lubricating my guns (especially my 1911's) I had shied away from gun grease in the past few years and have been using purely advanced gun oil. From what I had read and been told grease can too easily collect dirt & grit (causing issues) and that using only some advanced gun oil (including on my semi-autos slides) was much better.

When I first pulled apart this Erma I had purchased (which had belonged to a man in his 80's who had recently died) I noticed a black dry gritty grease that seemed to me like some type of graphite grease. Someone else had told me that it may have been Brownell's Action Lube he was using. All I know is one of his grandchildren told me he Never had a problem with it working properly.

So when I took it apart, cleaned it & reassembled I did use advanced gun oil but on the slide, breechblock, rear toggle, and other areas I used some Shooter's choice I still had from years ago at the bottom of my gun cleaning tool box.

Maybe it is just an excellent working example of an Erma La 22 or maybe it's the fact that he was using a grease liberally in the action that made it function so well!

[rhuff]

I consider, as do many folks, CCI MiniMag ammo as high velocity ammo with a muzzle velocity of 1260FPS. Of course, you may do as you choose with your Erma, but if it were mine, I would not use the MiniMags. Your Erma functions with subsonic ammo, so it should likewise function with std. velocity .22 ammo, that it was designed to function on. Again, it is your pistol, and your decision to make.

[TheRomanhistorian]

Shadowsix, a nice find! My only experience is owning two P-08s and an Erma KGP-69 and I've kind of wanted to find an La. 22 (I've seen one locally but it's $500 and I will pass on that especially when I saw it next to a $700 'Black Widow' with its stock lug ground off). Good to hear that your ammunition combination works, too.

I did as you did, lubed up the Erma well (I even followed David's advice about oiling up the mag well, too). Certainly seems to help things work. I might have to try that subsonic ammunition you used as well. Thanks for sharing.

[Shadowsix]

You are right rhuff, I should have looked more closely at them. I just went by the recommendations I've read for using them in particular in the Erma's and should have looked at the velocity..

I'll stick with the oiled subsonics & see if the CCI's are good enough to actuate my Kimber .22 1911 conversion (it is particular about some HV ammo).

Thanks Michael. I'm curious, I've read that the KGP-69 was better than the La, ET, or EP models, what is the major difference in them?

[TheRomanhistorian]

Hi Ross (if I may),

I've read that the KGP-68 and 69 models were better built (more steel and less alloys) and they're also smaller. I'd say 80% of the size of an actual Luger and the La, ET, and EP Erma models. They're almost cute. :P I've not handled anything but a KGP-69 so I couldn't really comment on the 'feel' of the different models.

I started a thread about mine a few months back:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=27578

It doesn't like a lot of standard velocity ammunition so I've used the CCI Tactical (1200 fps) but I'm still on the hunt for a standard velocity/subsonic ammunition I can use in it. It's a fun plinker and hasn't given me a lot of grief (yet). :P

[Shadowsix]

Hi Michael (and certainly you may call me by my real name Ross),

From both yours & David's description of the KGP-69 if I run into a decent looking one in my travels I will try to acquire it!

Also I'm going to look for some CCI tactical ammo to use in my Erma La 22 & some standard velocity too!

[TheRomanhistorian]

Hi Ross,

I found the slight copper plating aids in the feeding (hence use of the CCI Tactical) but who knows, perhaps that's psychosomatic and my other steps (following David's advice of lubing liberally) were the real aids in helping this thing work. I only paid $300 for my KGP-69 in January of this year so if you see one then definitely try and snag one in that price range! Good look and keep us informed about that La 22. I'm curious about it (there is one locally but as I said, $500 vs. $700 for the WWII Black Widow Luger next to it).

[Shadowsix]

Ok, a report update:

After my last cleaning of the Erma after the range I wanted to see if it was the grease I used or that I just have a good example of an Erma La 22.

As I said earlier when I first aquired the Erma & took it apart I found that the prior owner had used a black grease so when I put it back together from it's first cleaning I used some shooter's choice grease (red) I still had in my cleaning tool box.

When I took it to the range I got the results mentioned in my first post (excellent). Then cleaning it after that range outing I decided to try only my advanced gun oil to see how it would run on just that. Good thing I brought the oil with me to the range because before long it was stove piping & other jams and wouldn't run on the subsonic till I poured more oil all through out it (and that would only last a mag or two!)

So then I cleaned it again & lubed it up liberally with the grease (and oil in some places) and WHAM it functioned beautifully again like the first time on my subsequent range outing!

So the point is for my Erma La 22 (and I suspect others) is that they will run beautifully on a good high tech grease (especially the breechblock) & some oil and not on high tech oil alone.

I've now ordered some brownells action lube plus of which I'll try in it next (what I think the last person used & from what I've been told is the best gun grease).

[rhuff]

Glad to hear that you are figuring out your Erma, and exactly what it takes to make it run reliably for you. There are a "whole herd" of excellent gun greases and oils available to us, and most folks find something that works for them, and then stick with it. I have been very pleased with TW25b as a grease, and use Outers, or G-oil for the oiling chores. There are just so many really good ones available.

[Shadowsix]

Thanks rhuff! I'll probably look at that TW25b grease also just to see how well the Erma likes it.

Now for an ammo update for the Erma La 22:

Now that I have the lubrication down for the Erma it was time to focus in on a particular ammo.

I purchased more subsonic, regular velocity, and some higher velocity (but not over 1200fps as has been recomended) to take to the range yesterday. For the subsonic I found Remington (38gr), the regular velocity Federal (36gr) and for the higher velocity I bought CCI AR Tactical (40 gr, 1200fps).

Funny enough the subsonic & the tactical worked well but the Erma (even well lubed up) didn't like the regular velocty (mostly stove pipe jams).

The subsonic worked well but would not always actuate the hold open with the last round but the Tactical ammo never had a problem!

From what I see it seems that 40gr ammo works best, the 38gr ok, and the 36gr barely at all.

Probably the best ammo when I can get it in bulk would be 40gr subsonic to preserve the life of the gun.

[TheRomanhistorian]

Wow, it sounds like you have been quite thorough with your tests, Ross! I'll have to give the Remington subsonic a try then and see if my KGP-69 will stomach it. I like the CCI Tactical stuff but mostly because it's made where I grew up.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by Shadowsix

Probably the best ammo when I can get it in bulk would be 40gr subsonic to preserve the life of the gun.

I agree 100%!!! The softer the load, the less stress and strain on the toggle system......and that is a good thing in these guns(also in the P08 Lugers) If, sometime in the future, you decide to experiment some more, there are many different std. velocity .22 cal cartridges out there for sale that might be a perfect match for your Erma. You are waaaaaaay ahead by finding a subsonic that will function reliably in your gun. Enjoy.

[Shadowsix]

Was thinking of trying an interesting ammo I ran across but wanted to know what you guys think first.

A 60gr subsonic (950fps) 22lr ammo made by a company called Aguila.

.22 LR Aguila Sniper SubSonic 60 Grain 500 Round Box 950 fps

Do you guys think it would be too much or would it be safe to shoot in the Erma?

[rhuff]

That ammo is manufactured in Mexico. I have never tried any of it, but had heard/read good reports on it. Since it is listed as subsonic ammo, the chamber pressures will be more than safe for your Erma. That company also makes a .22 cartridge with NO powder at all, just a primer disc to propell the bullet(very slowly). It will not cycle an auto's action, but is very, very quiet when you shoot it(think backyard). When you shoot that ammo in a pistol with a can, you only hear the hammer/firing pin function.

[Shadowsix]

Went to the range and tried out the Aguila Sniper 60gr 950fps subsonic rounds in the Erma and they worked great.

Even actuated the hold open every time of which the Remington subsonics (38gr, 1050fps) I tried before would only sporadically do it from mag to mag!

People at the range would do a double take when seeing me load these rounds that look more bullet than cartridge! LOL

I've settled on the Brownells action lube plus for the Erma and it does not disappoint! I found Shooters Choice lube lasting for maybe 130 rounds before trouble started, whereas today I got to around 310 rounds with the Brownells before trouble started!