Diamond in the rough? (Simson)

alamar · 11-25-2009, 09:04 PM

To all:

I am currently looking at purchasing a few pistols including a Luger. Although they are over 300 miles away, i know the dealer and have purchased from him before, he has good prices and i have a friend who is local and was able to snap these pictures for me. One is of a mix master Simson and the other is a Mauser 1914. If the board wants me to post the 1914 in the other section of the forum, please let me know.

I have high quality pictures but i resized them to below 200kb. I assume that is what i need to do?

Opinions are welcome. for the Luger, the mag i believe is numbered to some of the parts (toggle), but not to the frame. There is also some sign of work on it, and looks like it was refinished. What kind of grips are those? they are plastic. Are they East German?

For the Mauser 1914, is that a regimental marking?

Ron Smith · 11-25-2009, 09:31 PM

Al,

The Luger is a VOPO (East German Police), captured by the Russians and then issued to the Volkspolizei after the war. It's not common to find them with Simson toggles, that's a plus. The grips are East German replacements commonly found on VOPOs.

The 1914 is marked to the Police School in Westfalen. Issued during the Weimar period, post WWI.

Ron

alamar · 11-25-2009, 09:41 PM

Ron

Thank you very much. For the Luger, is it worth buying? As a shooter?

As for the 1914, any collector significance that it is from the police school?

Edward Tinker · 11-25-2009, 09:52 PM

It depends on what they are asking for the Simson. Depends on what other simson parts are there, I would trade you non simson parts (and extra) for them)

What is the chamber date? 1918?

Ed

Ron Smith · 11-25-2009, 09:53 PM

VOPO Lugers are gaining in the collector market. It is worth having for a future collectable and shooting.

The 1914 does have significance to collectors who specialize in police marked pistols. Police school marked pistols aren't commonly found. I did collect police unit marked Mausers, but sold them off to purchase Lugers.

Ron

alamar · 11-25-2009, 10:05 PM

Ed, I guess my question was more of the line of buy it at least for parts , or would it just be a huge headache to try to make something out of this pistol. Trying to figure out where/what this pistol is and how it fits into my collection. The price is a whopping $340.00. i think the decisions is made!

Do you agree? Ed, let me get this into my hands, and then we can talk.

Chamber date is 1916.

Ron, the 1914, as you can see from the tag is $200.

i have pics of a bunch of other pistols that i am looking at as well, some FN's Sauers etc. Should post these in off topic, or would this bore everyone?

Edward Tinker · 11-25-2009, 10:41 PM

The parts are worth more than that; I would pull out my card and buy it yesterday....

Ed

Vlim · 11-26-2009, 07:32 AM

The pistol is a legit variation as it is, and for that price dead cheap too.

So don't use it for parts and don't 'try to make something out of it'. Just keep it as it is.

sheepherder · 11-26-2009, 08:16 AM

alamar -

What is that marking on the Luger chamber hood??? I can't make it out...

Can you post a bigger/close-up pic???

What other interesting pistols does he have???

alamar · 11-26-2009, 08:24 AM

Postino

Not familiar with the term "Luger chamber hood".

I resized the pics. Send me your email address and I will send you the originals which were 2 megs and very crisp. Let me know how large the email that you can receive be.

I have to sort through the pics today and will post the other pistols later.

Thanks.

Vlim · 11-26-2009, 08:32 AM

My guess is that the number on the chamber top is the serial number.

Normally the DDR would restamp the serial on the left side of the receiver, taking the frame number as the 'main number'. Since this is a commercial receiver with a nice crown/N proof on the left, I think they mistook it for a DDR proof and decided not to stamp over it, placing the number on the top of the receiver instead.

Even on the most 'mixed up' DDR pistols, the frame and receiver number always match, as the receiver was force matched to the frame if needed.

sheepherder · 11-26-2009, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alamar

Not familiar with the term "Luger chamber hood".

Sorry; that part of the receiver directly behind the barrel; and on the top...On some Lugers, there is a large date stamped (example "1937"), or a crest of some kind...

Vlim is more knowledgeable than I. If he says it's the serial, and it should match the serial on your frame, then I'm satisfied that he's correct.

On an unrelated note, I have a commercial receiver which someone or some agency has removed the Crown/N on the side of the chamber...Possibly a DDR/Russian refurbed receiver??? It does have the satiny finish of the East Bloc refurbs...

Vlim · 11-26-2009, 02:02 PM

Good question, but difficult to answer. DDR reworks are not an exact science. My experience is that the DDR did not bother to obliterate, alter or remove any previous proof marks, unless there was a pure functional reason to do so.

Lyn Islaub · 11-26-2009, 08:33 PM

Alamar,
I would be interested in that 1914, if you are not. Send me a PM with the dealers contact info if you don't intend to buy it.
Thx, Lyn

alamar · 11-26-2009, 11:56 PM

Postino

I cant make out the markings either. i guess i will have to wait until i get it.

Havent had a chance to sort out the pics, but he had a cz-38, couple of Sauers in 25, a Steyr in 25, colt 1903, an FN 1900, 1910, Fn Bay, colt 1908 in 25, Webley 1911 Metropolitan in 32. I will get the pics up this weekend.

alamar · 12-15-2009, 10:10 PM

I finally have the pistol in my possession! Currently I am very busy at work, with year end and Christmas coming up. Once I am on vacation, I will snap some more pics and post them. A few curiosities that i would love to get some comments on. Pictures will tell it better than words, but maybe a couple of quick questions:

The date over the breech is 1916, but it is much smaller font than what I see on many other Lugers. Also it is not centred, the "6" is almost over the centre line of the pistol.

the mag is an FXO with the eagle over "37" stamped twice on the body. as well as P08.

Curiously, the mag bottom has the last t of the serial number the same as the Simson and Suhl toggle.

To the left of the side plate, is an "N" under a crown.

11-25-2009, 09:04 PM	#1
alamar User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 79 Thanks: 7 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Diamond in the rough? (Simson) To all: I am currently looking at purchasing a few pistols including a Luger. Although they are over 300 miles away, i know the dealer and have purchased from him before, he has good prices and i have a friend who is local and was able to snap these pictures for me. One is of a mix master Simson and the other is a Mauser 1914. If the board wants me to post the 1914 in the other section of the forum, please let me know. I have high quality pictures but i resized them to below 200kb. I assume that is what i need to do? Opinions are welcome. for the Luger, the mag i believe is numbered to some of the parts (toggle), but not to the frame. There is also some sign of work on it, and looks like it was refinished. What kind of grips are those? they are plastic. Are they East German? For the Mauser 1914, is that a regimental marking? Attached Thumbnails

11-25-2009, 09:31 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Al, The Luger is a VOPO (East German Police), captured by the Russians and then issued to the Volkspolizei after the war. It's not common to find them with Simson toggles, that's a plus. The grips are East German replacements commonly found on VOPOs. The 1914 is marked to the Police School in Westfalen. Issued during the Weimar period, post WWI. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-25-2009, 09:52 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	It depends on what they are asking for the Simson. Depends on what other simson parts are there, I would trade you non simson parts (and extra) for them) What is the chamber date? 1918? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-25-2009, 09:53 PM	#5
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	VOPO Lugers are gaining in the collector market. It is worth having for a future collectable and shooting. The 1914 does have significance to collectors who specialize in police marked pistols. Police school marked pistols aren't commonly found. I did collect police unit marked Mausers, but sold them off to purchase Lugers. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-25-2009, 10:41 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	The parts are worth more than that; I would pull out my card and buy it yesterday.... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-25-2009, 09:41 PM	#3
alamar User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 79 Thanks: 7 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Ron Thank you very much. For the Luger, is it worth buying? As a shooter? As for the 1914, any collector significance that it is from the police school?

11-25-2009, 10:05 PM	#6
alamar User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 79 Thanks: 7 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Ed, I guess my question was more of the line of buy it at least for parts , or would it just be a huge headache to try to make something out of this pistol. Trying to figure out where/what this pistol is and how it fits into my collection. The price is a whopping $340.00. i think the decisions is made! Do you agree? Ed, let me get this into my hands, and then we can talk. Chamber date is 1916. Ron, the 1914, as you can see from the tag is $200. i have pics of a bunch of other pistols that i am looking at as well, some FN's Sauers etc. Should post these in off topic, or would this bore everyone?

11-26-2009, 07:32 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	The pistol is a legit variation as it is, and for that price dead cheap too. So don't use it for parts and don't 'try to make something out of it'. Just keep it as it is. Attached Thumbnails

11-26-2009, 08:16 AM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,441 Times in 2,329 Posts	alamar - What is that marking on the Luger chamber hood??? I can't make it out... Can you post a bigger/close-up pic??? What other interesting pistols does he have???

11-26-2009, 08:24 AM	#10
alamar User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 79 Thanks: 7 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Postino Not familiar with the term "Luger chamber hood". I resized the pics. Send me your email address and I will send you the originals which were 2 megs and very crisp. Let me know how large the email that you can receive be. I have to sort through the pics today and will post the other pistols later. Thanks.

11-26-2009, 08:32 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	My guess is that the number on the chamber top is the serial number. Normally the DDR would restamp the serial on the left side of the receiver, taking the frame number as the 'main number'. Since this is a commercial receiver with a nice crown/N proof on the left, I think they mistook it for a DDR proof and decided not to stamp over it, placing the number on the top of the receiver instead. Even on the most 'mixed up' DDR pistols, the frame and receiver number always match, as the receiver was force matched to the frame if needed.

11-26-2009, 02:02 PM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Good question, but difficult to answer. DDR reworks are not an exact science. My experience is that the DDR did not bother to obliterate, alter or remove any previous proof marks, unless there was a pure functional reason to do so.

11-26-2009, 08:33 PM	#14
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Alamar, I would be interested in that 1914, if you are not. Send me a PM with the dealers contact info if you don't intend to buy it. Thx, Lyn

11-26-2009, 11:56 PM	#15
alamar User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 79 Thanks: 7 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Postino I cant make out the markings either. i guess i will have to wait until i get it. Havent had a chance to sort out the pics, but he had a cz-38, couple of Sauers in 25, a Steyr in 25, colt 1903, an FN 1900, 1910, Fn Bay, colt 1908 in 25, Webley 1911 Metropolitan in 32. I will get the pics up this weekend.

12-15-2009, 10:10 PM	#16
alamar User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 79 Thanks: 7 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	I finally have the pistol in my possession! Currently I am very busy at work, with year end and Christmas coming up. Once I am on vacation, I will snap some more pics and post them. A few curiosities that i would love to get some comments on. Pictures will tell it better than words, but maybe a couple of quick questions: The date over the breech is 1916, but it is much smaller font than what I see on many other Lugers. Also it is not centred, the "6" is almost over the centre line of the pistol. the mag is an FXO with the eagle over "37" stamped twice on the body. as well as P08. Curiously, the mag bottom has the last t of the serial number the same as the Simson and Suhl toggle. To the left of the side plate, is an "N" under a crown.

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