my profile |
register |
faq |
search upload photo | donate | calendar |
03-13-2008, 06:37 AM | #1 |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Dutch Luger
hello everyone , just signing in for my first post . I have been a collector and shooter for many years , but have just bought my first Luger .
I don't have it in my posession yet as it is an incredibly tedious process to acquire any firearm onto your license here in Australia . One has to apply to the police for a permit to acquire each and every new gun , even if you have a license and several guns already . Any way as a part of the process I have been studying it and learning about Lugers in general which has been fun and exciting . It is a DWM dutch Luger apparently made in 1930 . I say apparently as a little conflicting information has come to light . More on this later . In the mean time I am reading "The Dutch Luger" by Martens & De Varies , an excellent work . I also have "the Luger story " and finally tracked down a copy of "Lugers at Random" at a good price in England ! So as you can see I am "Into it " regards to all - you seem like a nice polite and knowledgable bunch of blokes -- like most gun people I know ! |
03-14-2008, 01:33 AM | #2 |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Thanks for the welcome and interest shown "tac" .
yes I gather the only handguns you can shoot in the UK are air pistols and black powder ? But I thought you may have been able to "collect" live historical pistols ? I know you can have deactivated examples without a license . Yes the paperwork here is horendous but it is managable as long as your determined . My dutch luger is just up the road at the local gun dealers , but I have visiting rights -- at least once a week , untill the final papers come through . I thought only Australians used the term "drongo" ! Not even too well known here anymore . I am from north queensland and my father who was a timber getter and cane cutter used it frequently . I doubt if our American cousins know it at all . Like much of our slang we probably inherited it from our London slum ancestors ! Back to the dutch luger , it has a very low serial number 1428 . According to the chart of luger deliveries to the dutch on page 245 of Martens & de vries "the dutch luger" -- from now on abbreviated to "TDL" there are only two possibilities , 1912 with numbers 1 to 2141 or 1930 with numbers 1085 to 1484 . The pistol has two numbers stamped on the barrel , one matches the serial and the other looks a lot like 1930 . Apparently the dutch changed barrels in tropical indonesia every 6 to 7 years and always stamped the year it was newly fitted on the barrel , but I wouldn't have thought they would have re stamped the serial number as well -- maybe . Why its confusing is that according to "TDL" that batch of guns 1085 to 1484 were issued to the dutch navy and were of the P08 pattern without the grip safety . My gun has the grip safety of the earlier 1906 pattern !? So there you have it , a work in progress . By the way I would highly recomend "The Dutch Luger" to any serious luger collector , it is a superb book with beautifull illustrations , charts , old photos and engineers drawings and contains much more than just info about the dutch contract lugers . Its a bargain at arround 50 dollars . http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload..._003_copy1.jpg all my best . |
03-14-2008, 08:58 AM | #3 | ||
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-14-2008, 09:47 AM | #4 |
Moderator
2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso
Posts: 7,005
Thanks: 1,087
Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,689 Posts
|
raygun,
Your 1906 pattern Dutch Luger is an M11 delivered as part of the second contract in August of 1912. It properly has a grip safety and the Crown over "W" ("Wilhelmina") proof will be found on the right side of the receiver. After this contract, the proof was moved to the left side of the receiver where it remained for subsequent contracts. This information is found on page 128 of TDL. The 1930 on the barrel is the date of the last arsenal rework of the gun. The 1930 contract pistols were for the Navy and, as you have observed, had a stock lug, no grip safety and the "RUST" safety marking has a downward pointing arrow vice the upward pointing arrow on your pistol.
__________________
If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction |
03-14-2008, 12:32 PM | #5 |
Lifer
Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: The Capital of the Free World
Posts: 10,153
Thanks: 3,003
Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts
|
Tac, you won't find anything in my pockets except lint... and maybe car-keys... But that doesn't keep me from reading and posting here with the guys you described as thinking that the numbers you mention are pocket change... Hopefully one of these days they will drop some pocket change when I am close by...
__________________
regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL and are endowed by their Creator with certain UNALIENABLE rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..." |
03-15-2008, 07:44 AM | #6 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
as per your signature ?! By the way do you know Ron Hayes here in Brisbane , he is an aquaintance of mine , we are in the same collectors club . He had a very fine Luger collection which he recently donated to the singleton Military museum . Unfortunately he is getting on in years and is suffering ill health. He has just sold up and surendered his dealers license . |
|
03-15-2008, 07:53 AM | #7 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
I have been to Oregon too , lots of fir trees [I think] relaxed gun laws and the constant drizzle of rain - not that you would notice that, after living in England ! I know what you mean about the cost of living in the UK , when ever I'm staying in a hotel in London , even a "cheap" one . I feel like I'm standing in the window throwing 20 dollar bills out ! |
|
03-15-2008, 08:11 AM | #8 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
If you don't want to say I will quite understand . |
|
03-15-2008, 09:54 AM | #9 | |||
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
I wasn't made to feel very welcome last time though , some bastard blew up my favorite train , the circle line , just up the road from the hotel I was staying in at Padington ! Quote:
I have several friends in my club who served , some in Vietnam . They feel the same . Quote:
America is far more difficult , you either have to fly or drive , and I can't drive on the right -- too terrifying . |
|||
03-16-2008, 01:33 AM | #10 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
When the Japanese defeated the dutch in Indonesia in 1942 , many dutch servicemen were rescued by the Australian and allied navies . This is no doubt how it came to be in Australia . To me it has greater provenance to think it may have been used in the defence of our region . |
|
03-16-2008, 06:05 AM | #11 |
Moderator
Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,053
Thanks: 1,036
Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts
|
That's correct, many Dutch airman and navy crew, as well as civilians and normal military evacuated to Australia when it became clear the battle was lost.
If the barrel still bears the serial number and a crown/N proof, it hasn't been rebarreled, just refurbished. The crown/W is not a proof but a property mark. The Dutch didn't see a need to proof the guns when the countries where they originated from had very effective proof laws of their own. ps: Information about Dutch Lugers in Lugers at Random is erratic at best. Martens & De Vries 's 'The Dutch Luger' is completely based on surviving Dutch archive material. |
03-16-2008, 09:05 AM | #12 |
User
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 231
Thanks: 4
Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts
|
nice find Raygun, glad to see there are some fellow Aussies' interested in collecting and researching these lovely pieces! i think your laws are even more lenient than ours down here in New South Wales.......even replica guns are illegal! pm sent by the way
__________________
Went Blakely |
03-17-2008, 07:52 AM | #13 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
Not too much difference in the laws , but perhaps some in their interpretation and enforcement . PM received , will answer shortly . |
|
03-17-2008, 07:58 AM | #14 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
I will have a look for any proof marks on the barel or elseware. Indeed Martens & de Vries is an excellent piece of original research . Do you have any Lugers of your own , if so what models ? |
|
03-17-2008, 10:45 AM | #15 |
Moderator
Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,053
Thanks: 1,036
Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts
|
Hi,
We've got pretty strict regulations over here as well, that seriously limits the amount of lugers I can keep in my safe. So I opted for a cross-over between useability and interest (it means I actually get to shoot them as well): 1917 DWM LP08 with matching stock. 1913 DWM Dutch Luger with KNIL brass regiment plate. 1937 S/42 P08. 1972-and-a-half Mauser Parabellum. 1914-ish Mauser C96 with stock. Then a fair share of 7.65 Para, 7.62 Mauser, 9mm Mauser and 9mm para ammunition spanning almost a century in age. And some assorted paperwork including the company histories of the key players in luger production history, a good deal of Hiram Stevens and Hudson Maxim publications, most of them signed by the authors, DWM and Mauser company correspondence, assorted manuals, lexicons and brochures dating back to the early 1900s. Most of the documentation dates from before 1940. I really need to do an inventory soon. |
03-19-2008, 07:07 AM | #16 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
|
|
03-20-2008, 02:27 PM | #17 |
Moderator
Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,053
Thanks: 1,036
Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts
|
Hi, the 1913 is numbered 2850. It was the first luger I bought and I had all the luck in the world, buying a Dutch KNIL Luger in the Netherlands. Lugers, let alone Dutch ones, are not growing on trees here.
My interest in DWM put me on the trace of some interesting documentation. Basically I'd find a good book, then use the references in that book to find the referenced book, etc... With the internet it's pretty easy to find certain publications and sometimes it's just dumb luck. I also got some material from collectors who sadly passed away. A lot of hunting was done on ebay Germany, but that has pretty much dried up now, and what's still there is rediculously expensive. We do have some local ammunition collecting related trade shows over here, which are off-limits to non-permit holders. Nice stuff pops up there now and again as well. I always try to go for the original material, nothing beats reading an 80 year old reference book (or the smell of it |
03-21-2008, 01:24 AM | #18 |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Here are some better quality photos of my dutch luger.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05432.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05462.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05482.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05582.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/img_05632.jpg |
03-21-2008, 01:45 AM | #19 | |
User
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: brisbane
Posts: 150
Thanks: 3
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
|
Quote:
|
|
03-21-2008, 02:24 PM | #20 |
Moderator
Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 5,053
Thanks: 1,036
Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts
|
Hi,
Nope, guns and ammunition are strictly regulated, although pre-1870 guns are free (and some pre-1945 combinations, b.t.w.). So anything requiring a permit is only put on tables at official shows where the public consists only of permit holders. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|