Erma .22 Luger Research

roach · 10-04-2006, 03:36 AM

Trent and I are doing a story on the Erma .22 Luger clones. In our research there's some facts we need help on, and so I thought maybe someone here might help us.

Erma made .22 conversion kits for 9mm Lugers before and during WW2 for the German military.

In 1936 they produced a complete .22 Luger clone, now called the "Old Model" - questions... I can't find how many produced, and what the collector value of these are today.

In 1964 Erma introduced new.22 Luger pistol models. I know of a few model names, such as the Model LA and Model EP - I'm looking for a complete list of models. Also, from what I understand, mostly the differences were cosmetic. Yet I find references to the LA being very delicate (cheap) or prone to failure, while I hear the EP was a good Model. I can't seen to confirm that there are mechanical differences, or quality differences.

Trent has an EP that he says is far superior to the US made Stoeger .22 Lugers - and so has been written by many others (collectors and shooters). Is that sound?

Did Erma make any commercial firearms prior to WW2. Was the old model for the commercial market or the Nazi military? Did Erma make exclusively commercial firearms after WW2 in their new plant?

Finally, although there are a few good Luger books out there - we have some that mention .22 clones even. However, nothing that goes into detail on Erma Luger clones.
Is anyone aware of a book that has a lot of information about Erma .22 Luger clones?

We'd also interview and credit any experts too.

Thanks!

George Anderson · 10-04-2006, 05:31 AM

Erma made a high quality .22 calibre pistol between the wars that was more like an Olympia than a Luger. It did have a magazine with a wood button similar to the Luger.

In my opinion all the Luger type pistols produced by Erma after WWII are junk.

Vlim · 10-04-2006, 06:17 AM

Hi,

John Walter's 'Luger' (1977) has quite some info on the little Ermas.
His later 'Luger Story' somewhat less, but still some decent info.

I have some snippets of Erma related period data available, contact me via PM and I'll make an inventory.

Roadkill · 10-04-2006, 08:44 AM

ERMA prototype pistole. Probably manufactured between 1920 and 1935. Only one example known

Vlim · 10-04-2006, 12:37 PM

From Richard Mahrholdt's 'Waffen-Lexikon', published in Germany, 1937:

unspellable · 10-04-2006, 05:54 PM

Since the Ermas are internally quite different from a Luger I prefer to call them "look-likes" rather than clones.

Are you consdiering the center fires?

Currently I have an Erma "baby" in 32 ACP. It is a scaled down look like of the full sized Luger rather than a look like of the true Baby Luger. I have not done much shooting with it but so far so good, no problems.

I had a Stoeger 22 that was a jammomatic.

roach · 10-04-2006, 09:10 PM

Is the Erma EP .22 Luger scaled down or the same physical dimensions as the P.08?

unspellable · 10-05-2006, 08:05 AM

I don't know about the EP as a model number, but all the Erma 22s I've seen were rouhgly the same dimensions as a P08. I've only seen the mini versions in 32 ACP and 380 ACP.

roach · 10-06-2006, 12:31 AM

G. van Vlimmeren - thanks for the picture of the Old Model Erma .22 Luger - we wish to use it in our story unless you have any objections. Do you have any idea what their collectors value is today, or production numbers?

Lugerdoc · 10-09-2006, 09:56 AM

If you are interested in exploded parts views of the post 1964 Ermas, I'd recommend the catalog from Bob's Gun Parts (www.gun-parts.com), who still carries these parts. TH

Vlim · 10-09-2006, 10:57 AM

Hi,

No idea about the production figures. I'd be happy to supply a better quality scan for publishing purposes, if needed.

Aaron · 10-09-2006, 12:54 PM

Roach, when you write an article about the Ermas, don't forget to compare their metallurgy to the true Luger. You should point out that they are not machined from steel, but are cheaply constructed of pot metal with a thin steel liner in the barrel. Actually, they are not of significant interest to collectors, since they do not occuply a place in Luger history, nor are they in any way connected with the Luger except in general appearance.

unspellable · 10-10-2006, 08:14 AM

I would say they have a connection of sorts. To start with, Erma produced a 22 conversion for the real Luger. The look likes were obviously intended to be look likes. So they are a part of Luger lore even though it's unlikley they will have any real collector value in the foreseeable future.

10-04-2006, 03:36 AM	#1
roach New User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Erma .22 Luger Research Trent and I are doing a story on the Erma .22 Luger clones. In our research there's some facts we need help on, and so I thought maybe someone here might help us. Erma made .22 conversion kits for 9mm Lugers before and during WW2 for the German military. In 1936 they produced a complete .22 Luger clone, now called the "Old Model" - questions... I can't find how many produced, and what the collector value of these are today. In 1964 Erma introduced new.22 Luger pistol models. I know of a few model names, such as the Model LA and Model EP - I'm looking for a complete list of models. Also, from what I understand, mostly the differences were cosmetic. Yet I find references to the LA being very delicate (cheap) or prone to failure, while I hear the EP was a good Model. I can't seen to confirm that there are mechanical differences, or quality differences. Trent has an EP that he says is far superior to the US made Stoeger .22 Lugers - and so has been written by many others (collectors and shooters). Is that sound? Did Erma make any commercial firearms prior to WW2. Was the old model for the commercial market or the Nazi military? Did Erma make exclusively commercial firearms after WW2 in their new plant? Finally, although there are a few good Luger books out there - we have some that mention .22 clones even. However, nothing that goes into detail on Erma Luger clones. Is anyone aware of a book that has a lot of information about Erma .22 Luger clones? We'd also interview and credit any experts too. Thanks!

10-04-2006, 05:54 PM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Erma Luger look likes Since the Ermas are internally quite different from a Luger I prefer to call them "look-likes" rather than clones. Are you consdiering the center fires? Currently I have an Erma "baby" in 32 ACP. It is a scaled down look like of the full sized Luger rather than a look like of the true Baby Luger. I have not done much shooting with it but so far so good, no problems. I had a Stoeger 22 that was a jammomatic.

10-09-2006, 09:56 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	If you are interested in exploded parts views of the post 1964 Ermas, I'd recommend the catalog from Bob's Gun Parts (www.gun-parts.com), who still carries these parts. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

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10-04-2006, 05:31 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Erma made a high quality .22 calibre pistol between the wars that was more like an Olympia than a Luger. It did have a magazine with a wood button similar to the Luger. In my opinion all the Luger type pistols produced by Erma after WWII are junk.

10-04-2006, 06:17 AM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, John Walter's 'Luger' (1977) has quite some info on the little Ermas. His later 'Luger Story' somewhat less, but still some decent info. I have some snippets of Erma related period data available, contact me via PM and I'll make an inventory.

10-04-2006, 08:44 AM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	ERMA prototype pistole. Probably manufactured between 1920 and 1935. Only one example known

10-04-2006, 12:37 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	From Richard Mahrholdt's 'Waffen-Lexikon', published in Germany, 1937:

10-04-2006, 09:10 PM	#7
roach New User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is the Erma EP .22 Luger scaled down or the same physical dimensions as the P.08?

10-05-2006, 08:05 AM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I don't know about the EP as a model number, but all the Erma 22s I've seen were rouhgly the same dimensions as a P08. I've only seen the mini versions in 32 ACP and 380 ACP.

10-06-2006, 12:31 AM	#9
roach New User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	G. van Vlimmeren - thanks for the picture of the Old Model Erma .22 Luger - we wish to use it in our story unless you have any objections. Do you have any idea what their collectors value is today, or production numbers?

10-09-2006, 10:57 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, No idea about the production figures. I'd be happy to supply a better quality scan for publishing purposes, if needed.

10-09-2006, 12:54 PM	#12
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Roach, when you write an article about the Ermas, don't forget to compare their metallurgy to the true Luger. You should point out that they are not machined from steel, but are cheaply constructed of pot metal with a thin steel liner in the barrel. Actually, they are not of significant interest to collectors, since they do not occuply a place in Luger history, nor are they in any way connected with the Luger except in general appearance.

10-10-2006, 08:14 AM	#13
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I would say they have a connection of sorts. To start with, Erma produced a 22 conversion for the real Luger. The look likes were obviously intended to be look likes. So they are a part of Luger lore even though it's unlikley they will have any real collector value in the foreseeable future.