1923 Safe and Loaded Value SPF

dz · 09-18-2006, 04:02 PM

I have a 1923 Safe and Loaded Luger that I would like to offer on this site but am unsure of the value. I will try and attach photos. The gun is not mint, but about 92%. It is also marked on the right side of the frame (genuine luger registered us patent office). A fair value is all I am looking for. I have not seen one for sale for some time. Thanks David . If pics do not appear my email is bayfieldz@comcast.net

(Photos posted by ADMIN-JS)

John Sabato · 09-18-2006, 07:15 PM

David your photos are posted as you can see and now the experts on early Lugers will be able to help you out with your request...

A very interesting Luger...

Edward Tinker · 09-18-2006, 07:18 PM

I have never heard of a "genuine luger registered us patent office" marking?

Ed

dz · 09-18-2006, 07:26 PM

John Thanks for you help with the photos, for some reason they never show up when I try. David

Dwight Gruber · 09-18-2006, 07:46 PM

David,

This has all the appearance of being a Stoeger contract frame. It is important to know, what is the full serial number on the front of the frame? Also, is there a proof mark on the left side of the receiver--if so, and it is a crown-over-N, is it upright, or lying on its side? Does the serial number on the barrel match the frame number?

Any chance you can take sharp, close-up pictures of barrel and frame markings, as well as the left receiver mark? Is the extractor truly marked Loaded?

--Dwight

dz · 09-18-2006, 08:40 PM

Dwight Everything appears correct about the gun, but it is strange. I agree with you on the frame markings. The #is 90677, upright crown, barrel matches and the extractor is marked. I will try some additional pics, but I have been unable to attach them to the message on the forum. David

Lugerdoc · 09-19-2006, 10:12 AM

See pages 164-169 of Kenyon's "luger, the multi-national pistol" for some exc photos of the Stoeger imports and his "Lugers at Random" p196 for more details. Your pistol is in the correct serial number range to be marked Safe & Loaded, but I would expect the right receiver to be marked "A.F. STOEGER, INC./ NEW YORK" in addition to the frame markings to be correct. I can find and examples in any of the books, marked like yours, but mistakes do happen. TH

Pete Ebbink · 09-19-2006, 10:22 AM

What would be a reasonal date-range for a commercial luger in the 90xxx serial range ?

The frame encription is the 3rd. line of a 3-line Stoeger luger...those being made in the 1930's...per Joop's research over on Jan's Gun Boards.

Maybe if the 90xxx production date fits with this...this luger may have been made with left-over parts from the Stoeger production run ??? Just a WAG...

Here is a photo shot of a 3-line Stoeger :

Dwight Gruber · 09-19-2006, 11:41 AM

Pete,

The five-digit Safe/Loaded commercials (897xx-915xx, approximately) were made in 1921.

David,

Is it true, as it appears, that this gun is not marked GERMANY anywhere??

--Dwight

dz · 09-19-2006, 11:52 AM

Dwight It is true, the gun is not marked Germany. I had always thought it should be. David

Dwight Gruber · 09-19-2006, 12:25 PM

David,

All other Safe/Loaded in the range above, for which I have the data, are GERMANY stamped. This is a very interesting gun indeed.

--Dwight

Jamka · 09-19-2006, 03:37 PM

Gents,

Until now two easy to recognize Stoeger marked Lugers were known.

1. The so called two lined Stoegers, having the text 'A.F. Stoeger Inc
New York stamped on the right side of the receiver, and Germany below the SN on the front of the frame. More then a few have been reported, some have 5 digit SN's (1920-1921) others are alphabet Lugers, they have the C/N proof mark and DWM on the toggle.

2. The so called three lined Stoegers, having the same markings but also a third line with 'Luger - registered U.S. patent office' on the right rail of the frame. Here, the word Germany is mostly also stamped left of the first line on the receiver. All but two are reported between SN's 400v - 1000v; they came from DWM to Mauser in 1930, most have C/N proof marks, a few have Cc/U proofed barrels, all have DWM on the toggle. The word 'Genuine' was added to the third line, reportedly by Stoeger in New York (written evidence available). Also all frames have been flattened at the front. All these pistols have an A.E. on the chamber.

The Luger reported above has a frame of a three lined Stoeger, commercially serialized with a 5 digit number that is expected to have been issued in 1921. The next three lined Stoeger (+frame) shows up in August 1930. Furthermore, the word 'Genuine' has been added, which reportedly was done by Stoeger, also in 1930. Some pistols without 'genuine' are found, these were exported to other countries.

Without having this pistol in my hand (and under the magnifying glass) it is my first impression that the style and the pattern of the stamp on the rail of the frame is correct.
Lets put some things straight:
- The SN of this Luger indicates a production of the frame in 1921
- The lack of the word Germany indicates it was not exported to the USA
- The stamping of the third Stoeger line indicates an issue after 1929
- The stamping of 'Genuine' indicates that Stoeger added this in the USA

Conclusion?
None. This is one of these mysterious Lugers that can be analyzed without finding an explication to their appearance... However, it is very intriguing for researchers (like me).

dz · 09-19-2006, 05:30 PM

Don't forget guys, I was trying to find out the value of the Luger so I could offer it for sale on this site. David

Jamka · 09-19-2006, 05:47 PM

David,

On first sight it is a DWM 5 digit commerial 1921. In this state it might bring you $750 - $900.
The Stoeger line on the frame and the safe / loaded markings might bring in a bonus from a dedicated collector of rarities.
Just my thoughts.

Edward Tinker · 09-19-2006, 09:49 PM

David, the thing I find interesting is that it isn't pristine... If a "messed" with (and not you) gun, it would be all pretty and offered as special, being an everyday looking used luger, well, it is a puzzle.

I'd be tempted, that is for sure

Ed

dz · 09-19-2006, 11:08 PM

Ed Thanks for explaining 'messed up', although I'm not to sure about me. However, if you get real interested in this fine luger, trades are always considered. David

dz · 09-21-2006, 11:04 PM

Thanks for all who helped with identification and values. The gun is sold pending funds. David

09-18-2006, 04:02 PM	#1
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	1923 Safe and Loaded Value SPF I have a 1923 Safe and Loaded Luger that I would like to offer on this site but am unsure of the value. I will try and attach photos. The gun is not mint, but about 92%. It is also marked on the right side of the frame (genuine luger registered us patent office). A fair value is all I am looking for. I have not seen one for sale for some time. Thanks David . If pics do not appear my email is bayfieldz@comcast.net (Photos posted by ADMIN-JS)

09-18-2006, 07:15 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	David your photos are posted as you can see and now the experts on early Lugers will be able to help you out with your request... A very interesting Luger... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-19-2006, 10:12 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	See pages 164-169 of Kenyon's "luger, the multi-national pistol" for some exc photos of the Stoeger imports and his "Lugers at Random" p196 for more details. Your pistol is in the correct serial number range to be marked Safe & Loaded, but I would expect the right receiver to be marked "A.F. STOEGER, INC./ NEW YORK" in addition to the frame markings to be correct. I can find and examples in any of the books, marked like yours, but mistakes do happen. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

09-19-2006, 03:37 PM	#12
Jamka RIP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Antwerp Belgium Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Gents, Until now two easy to recognize Stoeger marked Lugers were known. 1. The so called two lined Stoegers, having the text 'A.F. Stoeger Inc New York stamped on the right side of the receiver, and Germany below the SN on the front of the frame. More then a few have been reported, some have 5 digit SN's (1920-1921) others are alphabet Lugers, they have the C/N proof mark and DWM on the toggle. 2. The so called three lined Stoegers, having the same markings but also a third line with 'Luger - registered U.S. patent office' on the right rail of the frame. Here, the word Germany is mostly also stamped left of the first line on the receiver. All but two are reported between SN's 400v - 1000v; they came from DWM to Mauser in 1930, most have C/N proof marks, a few have Cc/U proofed barrels, all have DWM on the toggle. The word 'Genuine' was added to the third line, reportedly by Stoeger in New York (written evidence available). Also all frames have been flattened at the front. All these pistols have an A.E. on the chamber. The Luger reported above has a frame of a three lined Stoeger, commercially serialized with a 5 digit number that is expected to have been issued in 1921. The next three lined Stoeger (+frame) shows up in August 1930. Furthermore, the word 'Genuine' has been added, which reportedly was done by Stoeger, also in 1930. Some pistols without 'genuine' are found, these were exported to other countries. Without having this pistol in my hand (and under the magnifying glass) it is my first impression that the style and the pattern of the stamp on the rail of the frame is correct. Lets put some things straight: - The SN of this Luger indicates a production of the frame in 1921 - The lack of the word Germany indicates it was not exported to the USA - The stamping of the third Stoeger line indicates an issue after 1929 - The stamping of 'Genuine' indicates that Stoeger added this in the USA Conclusion? None. This is one of these mysterious Lugers that can be analyzed without finding an explication to their appearance... However, it is very intriguing for researchers (like me). __________________ Joop

09-19-2006, 05:47 PM	#14
Jamka RIP Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Antwerp Belgium Posts: 51 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	David, On first sight it is a DWM 5 digit commerial 1921. In this state it might bring you $750 - $900. The Stoeger line on the frame and the safe / loaded markings might bring in a bonus from a dedicated collector of rarities. Just my thoughts. __________________ Joop

09-18-2006, 07:18 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I have never heard of a "genuine luger registered us patent office" marking? Ed

09-18-2006, 07:26 PM	#4
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	John Thanks for you help with the photos, for some reason they never show up when I try. David

09-18-2006, 07:46 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	David, This has all the appearance of being a Stoeger contract frame. It is important to know, what is the full serial number on the front of the frame? Also, is there a proof mark on the left side of the receiver--if so, and it is a crown-over-N, is it upright, or lying on its side? Does the serial number on the barrel match the frame number? Any chance you can take sharp, close-up pictures of barrel and frame markings, as well as the left receiver mark? Is the extractor truly marked Loaded? --Dwight

09-18-2006, 08:40 PM	#6
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Dwight Everything appears correct about the gun, but it is strange. I agree with you on the frame markings. The #is 90677, upright crown, barrel matches and the extractor is marked. I will try some additional pics, but I have been unable to attach them to the message on the forum. David

09-19-2006, 10:22 AM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	What would be a reasonal date-range for a commercial luger in the 90xxx serial range ? The frame encription is the 3rd. line of a 3-line Stoeger luger...those being made in the 1930's...per Joop's research over on Jan's Gun Boards. Maybe if the 90xxx production date fits with this...this luger may have been made with left-over parts from the Stoeger production run ??? Just a WAG... Here is a photo shot of a 3-line Stoeger :

09-19-2006, 11:41 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Pete, The five-digit Safe/Loaded commercials (897xx-915xx, approximately) were made in 1921. David, Is it true, as it appears, that this gun is not marked GERMANY anywhere?? --Dwight

09-19-2006, 11:52 AM	#10
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Dwight It is true, the gun is not marked Germany. I had always thought it should be. David

09-19-2006, 12:25 PM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	David, All other Safe/Loaded in the range above, for which I have the data, are GERMANY stamped. This is a very interesting gun indeed. --Dwight

09-19-2006, 05:30 PM	#13
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Don't forget guys, I was trying to find out the value of the Luger so I could offer it for sale on this site. David

09-19-2006, 09:49 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	David, the thing I find interesting is that it isn't pristine... If a "messed" with (and not you) gun, it would be all pretty and offered as special, being an everyday looking used luger, well, it is a puzzle. I'd be tempted, that is for sure Ed

09-19-2006, 11:08 PM	#16
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Ed Thanks for explaining 'messed up', although I'm not to sure about me. However, if you get real interested in this fine luger, trades are always considered. David

09-21-2006, 11:04 PM	#17
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 260 Thanks: 1 Thanked 55 Times in 39 Posts	Thanks for all who helped with identification and values. The gun is sold pending funds. David

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