New challange! Old problem!

[cirelaw]

The End Product, ps TKS

[cirelaw]

I would love to see the process but remember the springs are rattle snakes!!! You are working with a Luger Land Mine~~ I don't believe any one has done it lately and lived to tell how!!! Eric

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by G.T.

If there is enough interest, I will show the "spring making" journey step by step with pictures for the forum...

I am interested! I don't ever intend to make a drum magazine spring, but I do have to make a clockwork type spiral flat spring for an ongoing project I'm working on...

In fact, Gerry, I may want to buy a foot of spring material from you...

[cirelaw]

I found this historical perspective~http://www.nramuseum.org/media/94066...te%20luger.pdf

[rhuff]

I think that GT's project is awesome, as one can finally breathe new life into those "broken soldiers" that can no longer function as designed. I take my hat off to you, Sir!!

[G.T.]

Hi Rick, your concerns are well founded! I've had many springs mount a counter attack just at the point of success..... And, many center their attack right to the nose!....... But, if you notice there is quite a distance on the winding center pivot, I can mount a complete cover shield and still have room to work.... I just didn't want the guard to be the cause of the accident... .... we will see as we go... Best to you Rick, til...lat'r...GT BTW, Rich & Rick, If you need any of this spring steel strip, it is: .780" X .020" 1075 blue temper (mid 40's Rockwell C ? cuts & drills ).....let me know...

[G.T.]

Hello to all, OK, I've not been idle since my last post.... But, I had a few more fixtures to build and I have now completed that task!....... again, I'll ask one of our excellent moderators to post pictures... But, all of the item involved are displayed or attached to the GT table of, "Tears" or table of "Sobbing uncontrollably!" .... Anyway, there are pictures of the drilling fixture and jigs, and also pictures of the rivet set bar and guide, along with the "windy thingy" pictured earlier. Hand tools and my trusty digital calipers round out the items needed... A little about materials here as well, the spring steel I used is SAE1075 blue tempered with a number three slit edge.... That means it is just how it came off the cutter and will have a burr on one edge on each side... It is easily knocked down with a file... It requires a little more work on my part, but cuts the expense by 50%.... 1075 blue/black tempered steel is pretty desirable as it can be cut, and bent somewhat, but it cannot take a 90 degree bend, it will break! If you buy it soft, (annealed) you can bend it any way you want, but a subsequent heat treat and temper is then required, and of course adds to the expense... No sharp bends here, so we obtained the already tempered spring steel... SAE 1095 would also be a good choice, but probably overkill as it is stronger and just that much harder to work with.... I am guessing the steel in the original was closer to SAE 1050 or the equivalent?? The 1075 spring steel I have can be drilled with carbide tipped drills, and cut with a shears. Next step is to cut to length, and radius the ends, followed by drilling the necessary holes, riveting, then annealing the ends, and finally winding it up to install! More to come! Best to all, til....lat'r.....GT....

[lugerholsterrepair]

I HATE digital calipers! In luger holster repair I use a dial caliper all day long. I thought..many years ago the digital would be neat. Every time I picked it up the battery was dead! I am stuck on "dial up"!

Gosh GT..I envy you the journey but it looks like you got on board and left the station at cashville and are on your way to dead broke junction? Since so very few of these springs are broken..the need is a little lean? There IS one possibility I can think of though. The Numrich repro drum has a noticeably WEAK spring! I wonder if your replacement spring would improve a Numrich drum?

God bless you my Son..I hope the creative process brings you enough joy to compensate for your expense and efforts..Just to satiate my wild curiosity if that is possible..how many US dollars is one of these springs going to cost the hapless owner of a drum wit a broken spring? Or perhaps it's too early to tell?

Just thinking out loud here..is it possible to make these and send them to a client or do they have to be expertly installed? Riveted in or?

Can they be made up and stored prior to installation? Or are they made as they are needed? I wonder as I have entered into several very rare projects where putting it together was a giant lengthy task but after several years the knowledge and effort and capability is..lost once again. It's not easy to pick it up again.

Gods speed..ONWARD! Thanks for the sitrep.

[G.T.]

Hi Jerry, yes, it undeniably appears to be an upside down investment in time and materials.. But, I am truly going to chalk it up to learning....... Most of my questions about handling spring steel have already gone from questions to answers, and the proof will be in the final product... As for cost, the material was pretty expensive all by it's self, and the extra tooling and fixtures a few hundred more? Sooo, the springs will sell for a flat cost of $100.00 each, I will let all know about installation when I get past that point, right now I'm thinking they need to be pre-wound and one shot into the drum? So I will pre-wind and place inside an undersized retainer, hopefully one can install it from there?... I also noticed the understrength repro spring? But, I have not yet got inside a repro drum spring so I'm not sure if it will supersede/fit or not?.. I will make a few, more as tokens of success rather than a profit center of some type... ... we'll know in about a week, as mini production starts next week!!!!.. Should be anti climactic!.... ..... Best to all, til...lat'r....GT.....

[Olle]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I HATE digital calipers! In luger holster repair I use a dial caliper all day long. I thought..many years ago the digital would be neat. Every time I picked it up the battery was dead! I am stuck on "dial up"!

A little bit off topic, but... I have used Mitutoyo solar powered calipers for about ten years now, and I love them. No battery to worry about, if you have enough light to read the LCD you'll also have enough light to power it. The absolutely best feature is that you can zero at any point, makes it super easy to compare dimensions, measure how much you got left to machine, find the right piece of metal in the scrap bin etc.

[G.T.]

Hello to all! Well, yesterday and today were ""S#&@ or get off the pot days!" Sooo, we got started! I have enlisted our moderators help again for the pictures, and a slight narrative is as follows:
1) rough cutting stock to length with sheet metal shears
2) busting #3 edge with knife sharpener and 220 W/D
3) scribing radius from original, 3 different
4) grinding radius to final
5) view of strip ends
6) view of strip ends
7) drilling fixture and result
8) result
9) result
10) four ends with appropriate holes and slots
11) rivet set up prior
12) rivet set up post
13) annealing
14) result annealed anchor ends
15) spring wound to solid in fixture
16) spring loose set and relieved of tension
17) spring insertion into drum
18) spring preload while in drum
19) assembled drum and test scale...

Final thoughts? Well, when installed and preloaded, it measures approx. eight pounds at locked position, compared to ten pounds on the originals and probably six pounds on the repros? To get the extra two pounds I would have to thicken the bridal spring approx. .005" and this would cost an additional $400.00... not for now anyway..... Busted a few fingernails, ............but no blood... (cuz I broke all the sharp edges is why?!) All in all, I'm very happy with the result... The quality will improve as we make more of them?....And make some subtle changes as we go along! BTW, just got back from testing the drum, fed all 32 with out any issues! ... ... Best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

[Edward Tinker]

pictures 11-20

[CAP Black]

A task that surely impresses me. And I appreciate the effort to learn to do the job.
Thanks
Jack

[Alan Hassell]

Hi all: I'm new to the forum and this is my first post. The Snail Drum GT repaired belongs to me. I just want to take this opportunity to praise the work Gerald did in repairing it. I sent him the SD for evaluation and he took on the project. He evaluated the problem, made the tooling, sourced the materials and then rolled up his sleeves and tackled the project. I won't go into the project particulars, he has photo documented that quite well. But what I do want to do is praise him for his courage, ingenuity and perseverance. In the end he successfully manufactured the first Snail Drum main spring in 100 years. Well done!!

[Diver6106]

It is GREAT to watch a master machinist in his trade. I come from a family with Tool & Die makers and machinist in the past (Homestake Gold Mine, Nash Motors & Tool-Matic), but limited skills were passed on to me. And most sadly, they are under paid compared to our service economy. Not to mention the cost of tooling up for such home made products. It used to be such a high skilled trade that pay was good, but we have moved into CAD-CAMs and 3D printers which will only increase with robotics and disposable products, rather than repair. It is a delight to see such posts.

[G.T.]

Well, Rich, Rick and all were correct! There now, is blood!......... happened on a repro drum when trying to get inside to have a look'e'see! It took about 3 free rotations on my left hand, No stitches, but just by the grace of God on that! about two cuts per rotation... let me see?? Too many.... Anyway, once inside here is what we learned..... The Numrich repro drums are actually made pretty close to the original in almost all respects?... Now, to clarify, this is a current repro, not one of the first? I had inspected an early repro, and it had some issues that seem to have been paid a little attention, and as a result, a pretty good bit of kit! The mag. catch notch is better located, and the spring tension was considerably stronger... Now, as George Fortier found out right away, (his cat will never be the same!) some of the repros need an additional turn on the spring, not necessarily to make function, but to make it the same as the originals.... BTW, I think to be correct, the spring is wound as tight as possible with just a few degrees of rotation left prior to "solid" as in wind it as tight as possible, and the back it off until you can lock it??.....This is where the greatest potential for blood is, as you have to remove the inside arm to preload it?.... I am experimenting with my newly made springs to see if the same tension can be arrived at when fully compressed? ... That's all for now! BTW, if you want your repro drum re-tensioned, I will do it for you for a small fee??? Email me at, gctomeks@msn.cm.... best to all, til...lat'r.....GT

[lugerholsterrepair]

GT..Fascinating!

[G.T.]

Hello to all! To say I learned a lot about P.08 Luger drum magazines over the last few months would be something of an understatement........ I have been inside both original drums and the current reproduction drums and I am satisfied that we can effect almost any repair that isn't related to a catastrophic structural failure... Or battle damage?... Anyway, I have a couple of final pictures to submit, and the narrative goes as follows:

1) a picture of the drum spring relaxed 3/4 of a turn, to what would be the start position of the lever. this time it would measure just shy of 5 lbs tension....
2) a picture of the drum spring fully compressed to what would be the locked position on the drum lever. It has very little rotation travel remaining and would not make another 1/2 revolution. It also measures in at just shy of 10 lbs tension in the fully wound state...
These are the preferred preloads to replicate original loading of the mainspring. It can be achieved on both the originals, and the repros, and with my new made replacement springs....
I would like to THANK! all of the members for their interest and support on this project gone wild! .... I appreciate all the kind words and positive feedback, but I think as it pertains to me, most of you have confused stubbornness as talent?? .... Thanks again to you all, and as always, best to you, til....lat'r....GT ....

[Edward Tinker]

Two more pictures from G.T.

It is the final on the drum spring quest!

[ithacaartist]

G.T., a fantastic job. Part of your talent is knowing when to pile on the stubbornness!

(B.T.W., We can figure it out by the description, but the numbers in your post, and their pics, are out of order.)