DWM Commercial Survey--call for data

[Sam Steele]

Hi Mike,

Bobba's book is superb. While it deals primarily with the Swiss variation of the Luger, it does delve into the DWM side of things as well.

My gun would fall into what he describes as the "eighth variation". He describes it as thus:

".....a final variation of this model, the 8th, which is composed of commercial pistols which were produced in those years by DWM for the civil market (not only Swiss). All these pistols have the tight trigger of the first variation, while the safety grip and the manual safety lever vary from weapon to weapon, according to the period in which production is placed....The serial number could have been composed of 3, 4 or even 5 numbers, and the highest known numbers are round about no '22000'.......These commercial Model 1900 pistols, excluding those that were destined to go overseas, bear the German proofmarks (the so-called 'BUG').......The long interval in which this numeration falls highlights the fact that they were produced together with other models (commercial or not) during a period of several years."

So....at the top end of serial number 22000, that would be in the region of the Model 1900/06 commercial pistol. Bobba shows my serial number 4129 , "SUPPLIED (my capitals) between 1905 and 1906". That's quite a spurt of manufacturing in such a short period. While I couldn't immediately find his remarks on production, I take that to mean that guns were assembled /supplied much more readily if parts were already on hand - thus the variation of first series, first variation parts. As an 8th variation, it appears that DWM were literally "sweeping up" old stock parts and assembling pistols from them, finally applying the serial number at the time of assembly.

I hope that this helps.


Cheers,

Bill

[Ron Wood]

Bill,
The conclusions you have drawn from Bobba's descriptions are understandable. However, I do not believe that your low serial number gun could have been assembled as late as 1905. Consider that your gun is lower than the serial numbers of the U.S. Test Trial Lugers (also drawn from commercial production) which were delivered in October 1901. I am relatively certain that your early commercial was produced not later than 1901.

[Sam Steele]

Hi Ron,

I've been going through Reese's book on the U.S. Test Trials, and wondered if they had a seperate serial number range. I have to admit that if Bobba said "up to 22000" serial number range for the 8th variation, then that would have been a lot of pistols made in 1905-06.

But, I see that the commercial range wasn't interrupted by DWM, and yes, it's more logical to imagine a pistol with 1900-01parts to be built at that time, and not 4 or so years later.

My apologies for jumping to conclusions. That's why it's important to meet knowledgeable Gents such as yourself, in order for me to learn more.

Even better to know that my 1900 pre-dates the Test Trial Lugers. I'd be smarter to hold on to it, and look for that errant IDEAL stock.......................

Cheers,

Bill

[Dwight Gruber]

Bill,

Take a look at this link http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...rcial+database

--Dwight

[Sam Steele]

Hi Dwight,

Thanks for the guide. I notice that under the "Thumb safety Variations" that you wrote,

"There is also a range from sn 3206 to sn 4680 (at most) in which Type-1 and Type-2 safeties are intermixed."

As my sn 4129 is a Type-1 lever with narrow grip safety and trigger, this would make sense. I'm also tempted to try to estimate when the production date of my Model 1900 took place - perhaps in late 1900.

This Sunday is our local gun show. An IDEAL holster section was seen in the past for $625, so perhaps it may yet reappear. I'll have to ask around.

Cheers,

Bill

[Sam Steele]

Hi Gents,

Just two pics. I have a number of others, but they were taken of the individual parts when I had filed-stripped it. None of her in one piece.


Cheers,

Bill

[MFC]

Bill,
Very nice original early 1900. I saw an Ideal holster and grip set at the Louisville SOS show, for $5000! If you find that holster, JUMP on it.
Good luck and thanks for the pics.

[Sam Steele]

Good God !

Thanks Mike......Needless to say, firearm prices aren't as "hot" up here as they are in your neck of the woods. Geez....If I can grab that holster part, maybe I should flog the set south of (our)the border. The paperwork isn't as much of a pain at my end, now that I know the ropes.

I'll have to take more detailed pics of the entire pistol, anyhoo.

Bye the bye....A Swiss 1900 Luger is probably about 4-5 grand up here. I believe that someone suggested 10 grand in the States.


Cheers,

Bill

[Ron Wood]

That $5000 holster and grip set was in mint condition in the original box, not your run of the mill example. The only 1900 Swiss that I am aware of that approaches the 10 grand mark is a very early example in near mint condition and with an unrelieved frame. Four or five grand is about the going rate for a nice one in the States also.

[liquidengineer]

1920, DWM, .30 Luger
3910m (bottom of barrel, front of frame)
10 (rear toggle link, locking bolt, trigger plate, trigger,
Upright c/n (bottom of barrel, left side of receiver)
Lazy c/n (left side of breech block)
MADE IN GERMANY on right side of frame (poor stamping)
GESICHERT (safety)

[Gavno The Ugly]

*serial number, with letter suffix: 80019
*proof marks, left receiver: NONE, may have been sandblasted away.
*right receiver proofs: YES; not Crown/N.
*blank toggle?: NO
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?: 9mm; VOPO rebarreled.
*Export marked: No
*Krieghoff Suhl back-frame marked: No
*Chamber marked:No
*Safe/Loaded: In German
*DWM toggle: YES
*Eagle/WaA right receiver proof: No?? Unclear due to sandblasting.
*Police characteristics: No???
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics: VOPO refinish. Most serial numbers matching; crossout restrikes on sear and safety blocking lever. VOPO barrel date code = 983; digit 3 above it. VOPO "bullseye" grips, "dip" rebluing.

[Edward Tinker]

uhhh, never heard of a vopo barrel date code, can I see pictures?


Ed

[Gavno The Ugly]

Somewhere, in my prowling of the Internet, I encountered the date code; it may have even been here on Luger Forum somewhere.

The date code is the barrel manufacture date. It's on the underside of the barrel, next to the receiver.

It's a 3 or 4 digit number, denoting MONTH of manufacture, and YEAR of manufacture.

In my barrel's case, it translates as September (i.e., Month 9) of 1983.

[Edward Tinker]

is it a 4 inch?

Then I bet it is 8,83 and that is the land to land measurement, and says that it was taken into service originally by the german army or police.

I could be wrong, but I'd need a picture to see that I was wrong


Ed

[Gavno The Ugly]

BTW... I'll try to find a suitable macro lens to try to get a decent picture of the markings. I'm short on short focal length stuff here; I mostly shoot women's roller derby.

[Gavno The Ugly]

Hello Ed!

You're RIGHT... sloppily done strike on the first "8", as revealed by a magnifying glass!

Oops!!! Luger Novice here!

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by Gavno The Ugly

Oops!!! Luger Novice here!

Hey, not a bad thing...and you get to shoot women's roller derby. Sounds like you come out ahead!

[Gavno The Ugly]

Driven by curiosity, I dug up a somewhat disreputable 18mm lens and had a go at trying to do detailed photos of the Luger. The results were surprising indeed!

I'd forgotten something that forensic shooters know WELL; using a flash, details often show up that are invisible to the naked eye. Well, my little strobe turned up a LOT of details.

Yes, my "barrel date code" is indeed the 8.83 marking; it shows up beautifully in the pictures.


Luger barrel details by Gavno The Ugly, on Flickr

I'm beginning to think that this thing WASN'T rebarreled; note the aligned index marks. Perhaps it was ALWAYS a 9 mm ???

Most interesting... the proof marks on the right side are now legible. Besides that, a proof on the barrel turned up; before, I'd dismissed it as a rust pitted spot! Also, evidence of a third proof mark showed up, but it's 90% sandblasted away.


Luger proof marks by Gavno The Ugly, on Flickr

The toggle is here...


Luger toggle detail by Gavno The Ugly, on Flickr


I'm in doubt about some of the metal scars on the sideplate... possibly ANOTHER proof mark that got buffed out???


Serial number details by Gavno The Ugly, on Flickr


Hope this gives you some more information for the database.

[John D.]

1906 (New Model):
*serial number = 38115
*variation = AE
*proof marks, left receiver = None
*Caliber = 9mm
*Thumb safety stamped GESICHERT or polished = Polished
*Extractor stamped GELADEN or LOADED = LOADED
*Stamped GERMANY or not = GERMANY under serial
*long frame or short = SHORT
*thumb safety area stamped GESICHERT or SAFE = UNMARKED
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics = DWM toggle - Wood base mag, NOT marked 9mm - condition over 95%

HTH,

John

[Blackjack33]

Alphabet commercial s/n 1321n
c/N upright on underside of barrel, left frame and lazy c/N front toggle link
DWM on toggle
Export mark: "Germany" on frame below barrel
Safe/Gesichert
30 cal.