Failure to go into battery every time

[4 Scale]

Originally Posted by RWBlue01

I am a little hard headed when it comes to fixing my own guns...

I respect this view, I have it myself. However when I started collecting Lugers and shooting them, I quickly learned that the pistol is unique with a learning curve to fixing them, and expert help (sending parts or the whole pistol off) is required at times.

If GT deals with you the way he deals with me, he'll advise exactly what he found, you will learn a lot and be in a better position to fix the next issue yourself. I have now been able to fix several Lugers, and could not have done that without the help of GT/others.

[spangy]

Sie sind ein ausgezeichneter Büchsenmacher und Mitglied Herr RWBlue01

[mrerick]

The Luger is a very different handgun. It's action depends on a balanced design, and many of the things that can affect it are hidden from view. Even if you're quite skilled at working on firearms, you'll find the Luger particularly challenging.

Only a very few gunsmiths have the skill to work on Lugers competently. Gerald is one of them.

His offer is generous. You will likely be quite frustrated by the time you decide to take him up on it, or - you could sleep on it and get things packaged up tomorrow.

[mrerick]

This post references two Luger firing pin patents: (DRP 78,406; DRP 90,433)

Both German patents are assigned to Georg Luger.

The second patent discusses bypassing gasses. This is a google translation of the first paragraphs of the patent:

"The present invention relates to further embodiment of the gas paths protected by D.R.P. No. 78406, which are used to reduce hazard and counteract the effects of the explosive gases which repel the impact bolts when the latter is caused by shocks as a result of damaged ammunition and the like enter the chamber.

The new facilities are intended to cause the gases, which have penetrated, to flow as freely and rapidly as possible through the gas passages behind the Plate of the impact bolt and into the interior of the chamber. For this purpose, either the plate of the striker is dimension-ed such that between it and the bore of the chamber, a corresponding clearance is formed as a gas path, or is formed on the inner wall of the chamber When the striking pin is bent, whose plate is surrounded, or otherwise any suitable recesses are arranged for the same purpose.

These grooves or recesses can be used alone or in combination with the other gas paths of the impact bolt."

Click on the patent number (above) for a PDF of each patent straight from the German patent registration site. It's a wonderful resource for researching things firearm in Germany. I used it to great impact when working with Mauro and Gerben on the Mauser book recently published.

[spangy]

Nice ... Thanks for that mrerick

[K.Wilhelm]

At a minimum get a new breechblock from G.T. Also, never test a Luger's action with live rounds as you apparently did before Don's advice. I have had two Lugers that fired after releasing the toggle- luckily at the range and pointed downrange. That was no fun, but in one's house could be tragic!

[Sieger]

Hi All,

I agree with Don's comments and illustrations completely.

If memory serves, Vlim also agreed with us, several months ago, on this exact issue.

Those Finnish master gunsmiths certainly knew what they were doing!!

Luger may have been issued the D.R.P.s, but were they for a Mauser Rifle bolt firing pin design originally; as, strangely enough, Georg Luger managed to have D.R.P.s issued to him on several of Paul Mauser's original rifle designs!

Respectfully,


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Kurusu,
That is the nearest spot/point for gas to escape, for sure.

A portion of gas can escape around the gap between any style striker and the breech block; but not due to the presence of the fluting cuts - but due to the normal tolerance between the two parts.

As I wrote, some cuts could be long enough/deep enough and could function that way.

Retract the pin all the way and see if you can see the flutes; most of the time one can't, but occasionally a groove does reach that point.

My basic point is that gas relief is not the primary reason or intended purpose for the flutes-which is to provide a place for grease/oil/debris etc- and keep the striker functioning; if they relieve gas it is serendipity at work. JMHO.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Kurusu,
That is the nearest spot/point for gas to escape, for sure.

A portion of gas can escape around the gap between any style striker and the breech block; but not due to the presence of the fluting cuts - but due to the normal tolerance between the two parts.

The basic problem with the "old fashion" firing pin is that oil( if present) will fill that gap and act as a seal.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

As I wrote, some cuts could be long enough/deep enough and could function that way.

Retract the pin all the way and see if you can see the flutes; most of the time one can't, but occasionally a groove does reach that point.

You don't really need to see the flutes. There are to diameters in a fluted firing pin. the flute go all the way to the "narrow" portion.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

My basic point is that gas relief is not the primary reason or intended purpose for the flutes-which is to provide a place for grease/oil/debris etc- and keep the striker functioning; if they relieve gas it is serendipity at work. JMHO.

I really do not know what was the primary reason. But I know it works.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by kurusu

The basic problem with the "old fashion" firing pin is that oil( if present) will fill that gap and act as a seal.




You don't really need to see the flutes. There are to diameters in a fluted firing pin. the flute go all the way to the "narrow" portion.







I really do not know what was the primary reason. But I know it works.

Hi,

Don's contention is correct.

Sorry, but fluted or not, a pierced primer will, indeed, cause enough "piston effect" to damage the firing pin retainer or the grooves cut for it in the breach-block itself. This is the reason for most Luger mechanical failures.

This has been my actual, verified, experience gentlemen.


Respectfully,


Sieger

[G.T.]

Hi to all, although rare, I have had a few encounters with both over pressure, and pierced primer gas leaks with lugers, which occurred over the last 20 plus years when GT Specialties really started to ramp up luger repairs!! First the firing pin gas relief issue. I have had several pierced primers both due to excessive headspace, and/or a corroded firing pin tip. A famous pro football coach once called a ref over to his sideline during the game and said to him, "do you know what NFL stands for?" he quickly followed it up with, "not for long, for you or me you keep making calls like that!"
The same holds true with the pierced primer / gas relief... Regardless of the pin style, you have approximately 2 or 3 more round to shoot, and all is going to give up into a big pile of useless gun parts! First, the breechblock extractor supports on either side of the extractor lift, then very shortly after, the firing pin drives the retainer out the back of the breechblock, and with that, game over? Now, too stiff of a load, causes other failures, I have had broken receiver pins and also broken (in half) firing pins... plus it just beats a probably already beat luger to death... On every range trip (with different guns!) I check the primer on the first shot... it can tell you a lot, and save you a lot as well.... best to all, til.....lat'r....GT

[spangy]

Excellent advice GT ... from now on i will take a good look at my fired 1st round brass for a pierced primer or any other sign of trouble and examine all at end of my session.

[RWBlue01]

Well, I am hard headed, but I have to admit when I am beat. Since my last post, I went out and bought a second Luger P-08 to better understand the gun and what was correct.

So the gun with the issue I will refer to at 1940.
And the new one is 1916.

I am gaining an appreciation to the old armorers and the new guys working on these hand fit guns today. GTI think this gun will need to go to you, but I am not sure if the lower needs to go also.

The breach is not correct. Not sure if issue.
Extractor doesn't look correct. Not sure if issue.
The bullet ramp on the lower and the feed ramp on the barrel. The lower has had material removed. The barrel has not. I am guessing this is where my real problem is. This is beyond my skill set.

20211217_002827.jpg

20211217_002940.jpg

[G.T.]

Hi RWBlue01, from the chamber pictures you show, the problem could indeed be the feed ramp cut on the barrel chamber lip? The frame looks fine to me, and I think we could do the barrel first and go from there? I could modify the ramp to the correct angle and length and range test it on one of my test frames to insure proper function? My mailing address is:

Gerald L. Tomek
316 West Straford Drive
Chandler, AZ 85225 - 7117

Best to you and yours, til.....lat'r.....GT...

[RWBlue01]

Do you want the complete gun or just the upper at this time?

Thanks,

[G.T.]

If I revise it and it works on my frames, it will be good, and if any problem still exsists, it is most likely that the upper will not be the fault...Just the complete upper for now.... best, til....lat'r.....GT...

[DonVoigt]

Have you tried the 1916 to see if it feeds ok? Fired it?

If the 1916 feeds ball ammo, it does not need any work on the barrel ramp.
Barrel ramps are only cut into the barrel, and not into the upper receiver.

The pictures below show a 9mm barrel with its ramp on top;
the next three show three stages in lining a barrel to .30 caliber.
The top picture shows the barrel liner in place, the second shows the .30 luger chamber reamed, and the third shows the finished ramp blended into the original barrel.

[G.T.]

Hi Don, and Merry Christmas! I did mean only the barrel? If I miss-stated, I apologize, but with that said, the ramp looks convex and radiused incorrectly as well? I can't say it will be the cure, but it can't hurt to make correct?... Best to you my friend, til...lat'r...GT

[RWBlue01]

GT, I don't think it is a relined barrel. But you can decide when you get it.

DonVoigt, The 1916 is good to go as is, but the parts are not interchangeable with the 1940. Min and max specs. I can't get the uppers and lowers to work in any combination. Not even the breach blocks.

[G.T.]

Hi RWBlue, yes, I'll take a closer look when it is in hand.. As for interchangability, most of the time, most of the assemblies, will interchange? But if you do enough of this, you'll find a sizable percentage will not! The Navy I just completed for Ed, wouldn't go together no matter what i tried! I was almost like the parts repelled each other!!! I have four shooters, and I'm pretty confident one will work... Anxious to get a look'see and report back! Best to you, til.....lat'r....GT