any information about this 1917/20 unit marked erfurt would be appreciated

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by jbf22

Bill,
what would the reason be that it was stamped with a different making altogether?

What it means is some local armorer applied the Required marking and misinterpreted the directions. Armorers may be mechanically inclined but they weren't necessarily sharpest knife in The drawer.

[jbf22]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Ron is subtly suggesting that you attach pics directly to your thread. The forum members with the most to contribute to your knowledge base are behind corporate/government/military firewalls which block outside social photo-storage sites such as PhotoBucket, Flickr, SmugMug, Google, etc. IOW, they can't see your pics. Their employers pay for their Internet access and in most cases their PC/laptop, so it is not convenient for them to change ISPs.

Furthermore, linking outside sources means that this forum does not have your pics in local storage. They are not accessible in the future if your outside site changes format , location, or goes down (for whatever reason).

We hope you understand. Attaching pics here is not a difficult undertaking.

Originally Posted by John Sabato

What it means is some local armorer applied the Required marking and misinterpreted the directions. Armorers may be mechanically inclined but they weren't necessarily sharpest knife in The drawer.

The photos are on Flickr because there are to many to embed and there is a size restriction on photos here where as on Flickr I can post the largest highest resolution photos possible. If the "forum members with the most to contribute to your knowledge base are behind corporate/government/military firewalls" thats not really my problem if they are inclined to visit forums and share their knowledge I'm sure they can wait till they are at home on a personal PC. I posted on here to hopefully find out something I didn't already know the only person to help at all was the gentleman posting about the unit markings. Everything else as I had feared has been speculation by people that have no concrete evidence. Just a little information on what I have done thus far, I brought this firearm to Bob Simpson in Galesburg IL he happens to be very highly regarded on Lugers, he was unable to tell me what the significance of /20 was so unless someone has actual knowledge on it that is concrete not speculative I'd prefer no comment at all. Bob also was who informed me that this was a genuine German shoulder holster. So when you have 900 Lugers of your own including Luger number 1 and have sold presentation grade baby Lugers I'll value your opinion, but until then you'll have to forgive me for not thinking a single sentence post on a forum carries any weight. I was hoping someone here could atleast point me in the right direction on this gun, but as I had feared just as with most forums, alot of opinion and very little fact!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by jbf22

If the "forum members with the most to contribute to your knowledge base are behind corporate/government/military firewalls" thats not really my problem...but as I had feared just as with most forums, alot of opinion and very little fact!

Good attitude. That'll get you a lot of support here.

Brad Simpson is a member here. I guess he's included in your 'lot of opinion and very little fact'...

Welcome!

[GySgt1811]

If the "forum members with the most to contribute to your knowledge base are behind corporate/government/military firewalls" thats (sic) not really my problem if they are inclined to visit forums and share their knowledge I'm sure they can wait till they are at home on a personal PC. I posted on here to hopefully find out something I didn't already know [;] (sic) the only person to help at all was the gentleman posting about the unit markings.

H'mmm.

1,2,3,4,5...9,10.

Oh, well.

Regards to all,

Gunny John

PS, Durn, Ron and Sheep, you beat me to it.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by jbf22

I was told the holster is an original German shoulder holster, commonly unmarked(which would fit since this was a Calvary gun)....

The Germans crucified Jesus??? I'd always been told it was the Romans...

Originally Posted by jbf22

So when you have 900 Lugers of your own including Luger number 1 and have sold presentation grade baby Lugers I'll value your opinion, but until then you'll have to forgive me for not thinking a single sentence post on a forum carries any weight...

Haw...This is all good!!!

I think I'll join John under that rock...

...After I check Flight Medic's thread and see what's happening there...

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by jbf22

Bill,
Ron did not answer my question whatsoever if it was marked 1917/18 his response would seem appropriate but there is a 3 year gap and as far as it being a non-regulation variant what would the reason be that it was stamped with a different making altogether? I feel there is more information on this type of marking out there somewhere just not sure where.

Jonah,
This marking was applied during the Weimar era, a very turbulent time. Standards for marking were established but not always effectively disseminated and not always correctly interpreted at the unit level. There are many examples of non-standard markings during this time. It is quite possible that the individual that performed this marking had also been involved with the WWI 1917/18 type of marking and simply applied what he thought was the correct format for the property mark. Who knows? I seriously doubt that there is more information out there but will be very happy if you discover some.

[Ron Wood]

While I appreciate your lack of satisfaction, your attitude toward folks that are genuinely trying to help is a little sad. There is a great deal of expertise represented by the members of this forum. I have been collecting Lugers for 57 years, have examples in my collection that are nearly as rare as those you have referenced, and know Bob Simpson quite well...we mutually respect each other and gladly share what knowledge we have. If you think I am an amateur, ask Bob if he considers me so.
Respectfully,
Ron

[jbf22]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

While I appreciate your lack of satisfaction, your attitude toward folks that are genuinely trying to help is a little sad. There is a great deal of expertise represented by the members of this forum. I have been collecting Lugers for 57 years, have examples in my collection that are nearly as rare as those you have referenced, and know Bob Simpson quite well...we mutually respect each other and gladly share what knowledge we have. If you think I am an amateur, ask Bob if he considers me so.
Respectfully,
Ron

Ron I don't think you are an amateur I just don't feel that speculating on why it might have been marked that way should be taken as fact. I don't mean to offend anyone I just don't have much faith in forums. This is just a last resort which hasn't thus far yielded much fact. I appreciate everyone's input but its opinion at this point.

[Ron Wood]

Again, I wish you luck in your quest for fact. I am afraid you will find it difficult since documentation from that period is virtually non-existent and the marking is indeed non-standard so that makes it doubly difficult. In the absence of documentation, learned opinion is frequently the only recourse. Forums represent a large body of knowledge and experience, so while they may not encourage your faith, perhaps you could muster a small amount of respect. We mean well.

[jbf22]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Again, I wish you luck in your quest for fact. I am afraid you will find it difficult since documentation from that period is virtually non-existent and the marking is indeed non-standard so that makes it doubly difficult. In the absence of documentation, learned opinion is frequently the only recourse. Forums represent a large body of knowledge and experience, so while they may not encourage your faith, perhaps you could muster a small amount of respect. We mean well.

Thanks for the well wishes, while I do appreciate and respect your opinion, it is just that an opinion. I will keep this thread updated on any information I find in regards to this firearm, as I said I did find something saying the 1910 marking instructions included " Receivers from reserve stocks, where the year of manufacture does not correspond with the year of completion of the weapon, will receive a 2.1mm high correction for the year of completion behind the manufacture-year in fractional form." while I'm not certain that is true I found it through one singe source and as I have made painfully and rudely apparent I like to confirm opinion before I take it as fact. So I'll continue my quest for fact on this particular firearm.


I have had a hard time even finding a photo of a duplicate stamp of this variety, I have seen a few photos of 1918/20 but none 1917/20. I'm not quite sure if this makes it rare or more valuable. At this point its not even really about this rarity or value, its more the fact that its simply irritating not knowing why it is stamped this way.


If the information I found about marking instructions is in fact true, why would it have sat for 3 years?

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by jbf22

...If the information I found about marking instructions is in fact true, why would it have sat for 3 years?

It wouldn't have. The instructions you found were Imperial era/military instructions that were no longer applicable in 1920.

[GySgt1811]

"...while I do appreciate and respect your opinion, it is just that an opinion."

(Gunny puts down his beer and sticks his head out from under his rock...)

Yeah, jus' 'bout like e=mc2 is jus' Albert's opinion.


(Gunny belches, waddles around and crawls back under his rock and tries to find where he left his beer. No luck. He pops another one. Forum members smile benevolently and say, "Good Gunny. Now go back to sleep.")

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by GySgt1811

(Gunny puts down his beer and sticks his head out from under his rock...)

That sounds like the best idea I've heard all month...I think I will join you...

(It's been a long time comin'...)

[Don M]

Originally Posted by jbf22

I'm having one hell of a time trying to find out any information about the unit markings and the unique date stamp, any information would be greatly appreciated

Apparently, you didn't really mean "any."

[Ron Wood]

Gentlemen,
I know there is the temptation to make light of the discussion, but there is a serious intent to try to resolve a puzzling marking. There is a bit of hypocrisy in the posters approach to accepting information provided. For example, he accepted the identification of the holster as German without question because he was told that by Bob Simpson, and that rationale was used to reject the very valid comment by “wlyon” that the holster was never a German issue but likely a private purchase. While I don’t doubt that Bob arrived at his conclusion based on what he observed, since the holster lacks any markings and was not an item of issue by the German Army, he does not know it is genuinely German, only that his expert opinion leads him to that identification. Our “jbf22” chooses not to extend that observational expertise to opinions expressed on this forum. That is OK, and his reluctance must be respected.

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

For example, he accepted the identification of the holster as German without question because he was told that by Bob Simpson, and that rationale was used to reject the very valid comment by “wlyon” that the holster was never a German issue but likely a private purchase. While I don’t doubt that Bob arrived at his conclusion based on what he observed, since the holster lacks any markings and was not an item of issue by the German Army, he does not know it is genuinely German, only that his expert opinion leads him to that identification.

The holster is most likely one made by a German saddler for a G.I. during occupation. The German cavalry during both world wars wore standard issue holsters on their field belts. ALWAYS.

[jbf22]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Gentlemen,
I know there is the temptation to make light of the discussion, but there is a serious intent to try to resolve a puzzling marking. There is a bit of hypocrisy in the posters approach to accepting information provided. For example, he accepted the identification of the holster as German without question because he was told that by Bob Simpson, and that rationale was used to reject the very valid comment by “wlyon” that the holster was never a German issue but likely a private purchase. While I don’t doubt that Bob arrived at his conclusion based on what he observed, since the holster lacks any markings and was not an item of issue by the German Army, he does not know it is genuinely German, only that his expert opinion leads him to that identification. Our “jbf22” chooses not to extend that observational expertise to opinions expressed on this forum. That is OK, and his reluctance must be respected.

Bob showed me in one of his many books a picture of the same holster, I didn't just accept his opinion.

[wlyon]

The end for me. Have fun in your world. Bill

[alanint]

I sometimes wonder what a hot head like me is doing among such masters of diplomatic restraint.

[John Sabato]

^^^^^ Doug you crack me up sometimes. This thread will be found in the dictionary as a prime example of an exercise in futility. Good night all!

Ron, I salute your diplomacy in a difficult circumstance. I believe Secretary Kerry could use your assistance with Russia/Ukraine if you are up to the challenge.