pricing help desired - Page 2

mystical_tutor · 09-11-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Hi Gary,

The first thing you have to understand about this forum is that some folks have a way with words at times. Every forum has its pluses and minuses. Takes time to know people I reckon; some you never do.

You are most fortunate to own two Navy like; or originals. I have no idea which, but both are certainly more valuable than the run of the mill, run over by a tank four times, Luger. How much, I do not know or really care just talking plain. Navy pistols are faked everyday, originals; if they can be truly evaluated; are getting more rare. Provance is from historical paperwork, not from I saw three of these here in the states, and they are all the same.

If I was really thinking of selling said pieces, Simpson does offer a service for evaluation. Costs money of course, they do not run a museum. By now I am sure you have a lot of private emails inquiring on said pieces. You sound a bit more knowledgeable than the postings let on. I would counsel to sell only when you are comfortable and can live with the number. Once sold, you kinda have to move on sorta speak, because like the stock market things can change in the environment; once you have played, you have played.

I share the thoughts on security on forums/internet services; we do all we can, but it is a battle. No use in making it easier though either. You have to live with those types of decisions.

Gunshow folks are resellers, just like many collectors here and on other forums. They buy as low as they can, and sell high as they can.........tis called capitalism I reckon. There are a few that are in the collection way, because of the history/gleam of the pistols, but those folks are getting older, sorta the great generation we hear about in other venues. Knowledge is a key as you well know, either your own schooling/experiences or from a trusted knowledgeable source. The environment can kinda be like the 22lr guys that buy from the big box outfits, and then go to the gunshows to resell.

I got out of the collection type arena years ago, but still have an interest in the Luger pistol. Rare pistols like yours (maybe, if original) have some value that sometimes is hard to place, remembering the times that we are in now.

If you want just a general idea of current values, and I use that term fairly loosely, I would just hit the various large storefront Luger sites, and compare to the pistols in hand. If you are looking for a relative, today's type value; it will take some footwork and usually a fee. We all enjoy keeping our shirts you know........

I for one enjoyed the pictures of said pieces, not every day we see the two position rear sight anymore.

Rick; You got the right of it. One thing I did not know that you and others have mentioned a couple times and made my ears perk up. That is the faking of these pieces. These that I have have not even seen the light of day for 13 years, Put them in a bank safety deposit box when I got back from Korea and got them moved to my new home. Always, "well one of these days I'm gonna get them ready to display at a gun show" (won a prize in Waco Texas for my Luger display in the '80s). It just hasn't happened. Now, things have changed and I gotta get them out--but I'll tell you man, every time I fondle one of them it is that much harder to even think about selling them. Much better to just pass on and let some executor worry about them. Had my first Luger in '57 and fell in love with them (sold it in '59 for Christmas money--got $30 for it).
Enough of that trash.
Thanks for your comments and advice.
Say, got any advice on a box full of pieces? Whole bunch of little stuff, Thinking about itemizing it and putting it up on ebay to see what nits on it but there is some of it I'n not even sure what it is. Some is Swiss and some I think remfg (Simpson?)
Also have a mixed parts K date (top all same, bottom mixed), G date is matching I think. Swiss is matching, Cav test is matching (except it has Ideal grips). Got a Navy stock but I guess they are easy to fake. Got this one from one Ralph Shattuck back in the '60s but it looks like the tang has been messed with. Bunch of other crap too..
Sorry for the long winded. procrastinating not making tags for everything and swabbing bores before the weekend gets here.

Gary

mystical_tutor · 09-11-2013, 06:38 PM

Jerry,
Well, I am never comfortable with grading bluing or straw.

I have tried to check out the BBoGV to see if it has what I want and is reliable yet without paying the subscription cost until I am sure it is not just a gross generalization.
I appreciate your recomendation as I am not enough in the know to evaluate any pricing guide (which is why I asked my original question).
I think I'll spring for the online version. It may be more up to date than the book. There are two bad reviews on Amazon reference up to date pricing in the book.
Because I have a wide spectrum of Lugers this should be make things much easier.

In addition I like comments from real people. Often make me think and open new thoughts to me.

Gary

lugerholsterrepair · 09-11-2013, 07:38 PM

Gary..I have searched the World for Navy stocks..I would love to see yours!
Jerry

Here's a couple of mine!

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...275#post240275

mystical_tutor · 09-12-2013, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Gary..I have searched the World for Navy stocks..I would love to see yours!
Jerry

Here's a couple of mine!

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...275#post240275

Nice pile of stuff you have there Sure glad my HS teacher didn't have a selection like that or I still wouldn't be able to sit down.

I offer these pictures for what they are. Hard time thinking a stock could have been so many places etc. It is easy to see that the tang has been after fit, by the slack in fit and by the extension of the screws, which I am sure no self-respecting German armorer would have allowed. It is understandable though as in my early days it was still illegal to have stocks with tangs or frames with lugs.

alanint · 09-13-2013, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

It is understandable though as in my early days it was still illegal to have stocks with tangs or frames with lugs.

Sadly, this was never the case. This was a rumor that was circulated among collectors that soon became "fact". It was a misinterpretation of a clause in the 1934 NFA Act. A correct, period or exact copy of a stock was always legal to have on the appropriate pistol.

mystical_tutor · 09-13-2013, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Sadly, this was never the case. This was a rumor that was circulated among collectors that soon became "fact". It was a misinterpretation of a clause in the 1934 NFA Act. A correct, period or exact copy of a stock was always legal to have on the appropriate pistol.

Yes it was quite sad. I saw lugers (2) that had stock lugs ground off, unfortunately one was an art. Saw a few stocks where the tang had been removed (and I hope safely tucked away). I also had a frame that had a rebuilt stock lug on it, humm, I may still have that, don't remember trading it off..... LOL. Problem with being a pack rat.

Gary

Edward Tinker · 09-11-2013, 07:42 PM

Well, and I am prejudiced, but I would send the krieghoff to Tom Whiteman for appraisal and sale. I trust him to be fair, but I also worked with him at legacy collectables.

Ed
SSG USA RET

mystical_tutor · 09-14-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Well, and I am prejudiced, but I would send the krieghoff to Tom Whiteman for appraisal and sale. I trust him to be fair, but I also worked with him at legacy collectables.

Ed
SSG USA RET

I thought I asked but see it was one of my "mental PM's". What is the best way to contact Tom? The one I found on the internet is a marriage counselor.

Norme · 09-14-2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

Your comment does sting a bit, specially as I honored your request for the Navy SN by sending it to you. However, if asking for references to pricing information without sharing my privet gun information on the internet, and specifically a non https site is selfish rather than cautious, well I guess that's your call.

Gary

Hi Gary, I'm sorry that my post hurt your feelings, that was not my intent. I'm biking in Spain right now and have limited internet access, your info never came through. Please try again at the address below. You should know that all listings on the Navy List are anonymous, the only one who knows the owner's names is me, and I don't publish that information.
Regards, Norm
normrab@comcast.net

mystical_tutor · 09-14-2013, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Gary, I'm sorry that my post hurt your feelings, that was not my intent. I'm biking in Spain right now and have limited internet access, your info never came through. Please try again at the address below. You should know that all listings on the Navy List are anonymous, the only one who knows the owner's names is me, and I don't publish that information.
Regards, Norm
normrab@comcast.net

Biking in Spain!!! You lucky dog. If you are around Madrid I can hook you up with all the internet you want, I have friends there that will treat you like a king. (From my main hobby now, Magic: the gathering).

I will try that email again. I would prefer to do it by snail mail but I'll take the risk this one time.

I really don't mind if the numbers are published--as long as they are not traceable to me, or whoever I might sell one to.

Enjoy beautiful Espana. But do it soon as the weather gets really nasty there in the fall.

Gary

mystical_tutor · 09-22-2013, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

Biking in Spain!!! You lucky dog. If you are around Madrid I can hook you up with all the internet you want, I have friends there that will treat you like a king. (From my main hobby now, Magic: the gathering).

I will try that email again. I would prefer to do it by snail mail but I'll take the risk this one time.

I really don't mind if the numbers are published--as long as they are not traceable to me, or whoever I might sell one to.

Enjoy beautiful Espana. But do it soon as the weather gets really nasty there in the fall.

Gary

Norm;

I owe you one. I did not send that SN to you. I'm up in the Colorado mts at a golf tournament my wife is in and discovered my post to you in the draft box on one of my accounts. DOH. When I get back home I will send both of the numbers.

Gary

Edward Tinker · 09-14-2013, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mystical_tutor

I thought I asked but see it was one of my "mental PM's". What is the best way to contact Tom? The one I found on the internet is a marriage counselor.

Actually, yes, he was, I think he just runs the biz now - http://www.legacy-collectibles.com

My books are available from Simpson's LTD and I have copies of all of them for sale.

Values vary, but any Navy (average shooter condition) is worth $2,000 - so one in very nice shape, you can easily double that. But everything depends on the models and I have not read the posting close enough

and today I am too lazy

mystical_tutor · 09-14-2013, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Actually, yes, he was, I think he just runs the biz now - http://www.legacy-collectibles.com

My books are available from Simpson's LTD and I have copies of all of them for sale.

Values vary, but any Navy (average shooter condition) is worth $2,000 - so one in very nice shape, you can easily double that. But everything depends on the models and I have not read the posting close enough

and today I am too lazy

Ed:
Thanks, nice web site, wish that webmaster was doing my site for me--the guy I have now just doesn't get things done.

I think both of my navies are quality pieces from what I have been able to find on sites. For the purpose of this show I put each of them at 6K, mainly to reduce tire kicking.

Wasn't necessary, the show is a flop. With all the flooding we have had many people are just not going places right now and many others thought the show would be closed because of confusion about what highways are closed. Hwy 24 going West has been close off and on for several days and people don't want to risk coming to Colorado Springs and not being able to go home.

so a show that always has 50-100 people standing at the door on day one for it to open, we had 10 or so. Did have a lot of time to talk to dealers and got a lot of positive input.

there isa "Military Only" one day show in Denver in a couple weeks, plan to go there. The organizer that I live close to here in the springs said he had a few people he would send my way.

Didn't sell a thing but have 5 people bringing me Lugers tomorrow to find out what they are so I will have a great day just getting to talk to them.

Thanks for all your help and I'll mention you when I contact Tom in a week or so, if that is ok with you. Not "name dropping" just trying to let him know you make referrals.

Gary

Ben M. · 09-11-2013, 08:10 PM

u might find a same-ish pistol on this dealer site. http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?...31b6215ad1e5a6

mystical_tutor · 09-12-2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M.

u might find a same-ish pistol on this dealer site. http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php?...31b6215ad1e5a6

Thanks Ben. Yes I have had that site open on my browser while comparing it to the BBoGV and a couple other on line dealers. Surprisingly some of Simson's prices are not that much different than the others. I actually dealt with them years ago and just ran across one of their catalogues today while trying to find the documentation for my Thai Art.

I do appreciate your time to post it for me though.

Gary

mystical_tutor · 09-11-2013, 08:15 PM

Jerry,

Bought a subscription to the BBoGV but having trouble finding my Lugers. Not sure if it is an inability to use their search engine or a lock of data in their db. Can't find my Thailand Art or my Mauser Bulgarian Commemerative. If you have it are those in it and I'm just not searching well enough?

lugerholsterrepair · 09-11-2013, 08:33 PM

Gary, They are in the book..I am a computer Luddite. I like books. Maybe someone else here can say?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...275#post240275

mrerick · 09-11-2013, 10:35 PM

Hi Gary,

Well, this is becoming an interesting discussion, isn't it?

All of us that are responding to you are interested in being helpful. Clearly, I don't know you, yet I believe members here are sincere and accurate in the responses you've gotten.

As you've learned, the extremely rare variations of Lugers you have mentioned (Now including Navy Lugers; a Krieghoff; A Bulgarian Mauser and Thai art - not sure if that is a Luger or some other artwork) are priced at a premium above the run of the mill military Lugers most of us are lucky enough to own.

You've also learned about the widespread faking of rare premium priced Lugers. Part of faking them involves establishing a level of authenticity that will satisfy a buyer.

Also, from reading an earlier post, I understand you have a fairly good number of spare parts including those for Simson Lugers and others. As you now, Simson Lugers are even more rare than Krieghoffs.

The simple fact is that determining the authenticity of a rare Luger is a difficult thing. You cannot increase the cachet of a Luger by discussing it here on a board with experts, particularly without the ability to post detailed pictures. It is simply not possible to give you an opinion one way or the other on authenticity or value.

I would love to see your collectable Lugers verified as authentic, and re-enter the collecting community (which has grown considerably over the years). The simple fact is that everything you've mentioned is high value and should be evaluated by an expert.

You posted this:

"No one needs to know a SN to offer advice on value, unless that # is really unique or way out of some known range."

Actually, this is not correct. The only way to determine the authenticity of a very rare variation of Luger is to inspect it in person, in hand - and have the background to recognize what is right and wrong about it. There are experts on this board that have done this many times over many years. To help the collecting community, people like Norm and Tom have compiled lists of guns they have authenticated. These are kept by serial number and description.

Recently, for example, a product of "Waffenfabrik Minneapolis" turned up with the exact same serial number of a known authentic example in Europe.

So, I sincerely hope that you have valuable and authentic Lugers, and am sorry that you have to part with them for financial reasons.

No reference books or online discussion can help develop a fair value estimate or confirm authenticity, with or without serial numbers or accurate photographs.

You should seek full value for your collectables. You should not compromise for estimates from gun show dealers, online forum participants or someone that approaches you by Email.

With very rare artifacts, it's best to get the opinion of experts that are recognized in the field. Even they can make mistakes, but you're more likely to learn the truth from them. They develop their expertise over decades of study, and do their work within the context of an extended community.

The investment they have in study, travel, artifact acquisition and time comes with a price. For that reason it is fair to pay them to authenticate and price a rare valuable collectable. Ultimately, you and a buyer will experience a much fairer transaction if you start with an appraisal.

If you are in a hurry, and cannot do these things it will probably cost you more to make a quick sale, and increase the risk for a buyer.

Of course, cavaet emptor!

mystical_tutor · 09-13-2013, 01:07 AM

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