Persian 4" Mauser Luger

[alvin]

Those Persian stuff are cool. Acquired a Persian C96 earlier in the year. Don't know who imported them into the U.S., no importer stamp. The seller had two for sale, another one was actually a few percent better in blue, but the muzzle was marred. Plus and minus, two were comparable. We did not learn how to share among us -- a few guys rushed to this, cost me "legs and arms" (just learned, like drawing a picture ). Nevertheless, Persia was an interesting country, and had some interesting guns.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by alvin

Those Persian stuff are cool. Acquired a Persian C96 earlier in the year. Don't know who imported them into the U.S., no importer stamp. The seller had two for sale, another one was actually a few percent better in blue, but the muzzle was marred. Plus and minus, two were comparable. We did not learn how to share among us -- a few guys rushed to this, cost me "legs and arms" (just learned, like drawing a picture ). Nevertheless, Persia was an interesting country, and had some interesting guns.

wow.. very cool indeed.. i had to post this picture of aC96

[alvin]

That must come from Mauser's glass photograph. That's not Persian. It's even rarer -- an Ottoman Empire Conehammer. The performance of this customer was far away from top in the 19th and 20th century, but this was the same empire that finished 1100-year-old Byzantine Empire in the middle of 15th century, just a few decades before Columbus found America. Long history. Not many collectors have this gun. I don't. Maybe can find one in future, maybe not affordable, maybe in too poor shape, maybe... rare item, so lots of uncertainties.

[saab-bob]

Alvin
Was the Turkish cone hammer a actual Mauser contract?
How many were made?
Bob

[alvin]

It must be a contract. The gun is separately numbered. Markings are in Farsi. Mauser Archive says 1000 C96 pistols and ammunition were bought by Turkish in 1898.

In production volume, Turkish is not more rare than Persian. But it's way harder to wait a Turkish in OK shape.

[Maestro]

Here's a very interesting Persian Artillery Luger I came across

[Maestro]

i guess the engraving was done in the 70's?

[Maestro]

..it is very cool looking though

[alvin]

How much is the asking price of this engraved gun?

[mystical_tutor]

A very scholarly, well presented and fascinating work. I think it deserves a sticky as a reference source.

I'm also sure you will be expanding it as it is obvious you have a love for this contract--and understandably so.

Your original questions are more difficult to address with any certainty. As stated above value on specialties is.. well, special. The reworked piece will turn some collectors off. Their value of the piece will reflect that. The guy next to him would LOVE to have it (me) despite that. For the person buying with an eye to the future for resale value original always has a larger market and reworks are a calculated risk.

For the collector that collects for the internal satisfaction of having something he is proud of, it should not matter greatly what the market or critics think-after all the executor of your estate is the one that will have to figure it all out.

Just the .02 of a "brainless" (because I shoot matched Navy Lugers) old collector.

Gary

[Maestro]

Alvin, I'm not aware of the pistol to be for sale. This one particular Luger was a thread that was written in 2010 that I came across as I was researching more regards to this particular contract as Gary states very well in his quote above.

Apparently, this Luger may have been the heirloom, passed from father to son, engraved by "E.Dupont";

year, make, or model is no longer important. the gun is worth the money . it is now just a platform on which the artwork has been done. DuPont was a famous french engraver but died in 1897 i think. perhaps one or more of his students did it as a tribute to him.

other believe

The pistol was part of a 1936/37 Mauser contract for the Iranian government. The engraving, though very well executed, was done in the 1970's or later when the pistols were sold as surplus by the Iranian government. The engraving detracts from the value considerably.

The R.W. Norton Gallery in Shreveport, Louisiana has one of the two known original .45 ACP Lugers. Shreveport, Louisiana was also the home of E.C. Prudhomme who was a professional wrestler turned gun engraver. E.C. became a master engraver, and Mr. Norton liked his work. Among the pistols in the Norton Gallery collection are everything from a High Standard Sentinel to a Borchardt C-93 that was engraved by Prudhomme. It is the consensus of collectors that the value of the Borchardt has been severely diminished by the engraving, even as professionally as it was executed. There is just no way you can take an antique pistol of considerable value, strip it, engrave it, and expect it to double in value.
Even with the engraved pistols in the Norton Gallery, it is still comforting to know that Mr. Norton did not have the big .45 Luger engraved.

the following picture is another i found, however, not certain if its Persian Contract or not; maybe just engraved Luger.

I agree with Gary. Myself, personally, if this was around I'd love to have it

[Sergio Natali]

Well I would say it's quite an oustandingly interesting report; still I'm afraid I'm some sort of "Luger integralist", as I would prefer our "Lugers" the way they originally are: beautiful weapons.

[alvin]

I had an engraved Luger some years ago. It was a 4" Erfurt beautifully engraved and coated with silver. Acquired from a local store. Later learned from others saying that it's not a collectible. But it's a pretty gun, way cheaper than factory work, and there are some collectors buying them, the Erfurt was sold easily via another dealer.

[alanint]

While down in Argentina some years ago I saw several, different WW2 era German presentation pistols. I wrote down the names engraved on each pistol and they all turned out to be bona fide Nazi personalities. Not all engraved presentation guns are post war.

[Ron Wood]

Maestro,
That last engraved "Luger" is a toy. I think it sometimes came as a set with a mounting plaque labled "Bio Hazard" that may have been associated with a TV show or video game (not really up on these things ). It was modeled to look very similar to one of the authentic Krieghoff presentation guns.

[mystical_tutor]

Probably for the "purist" there is little or no difference between engraving and refinishing. I can respect that and agree there is a beauty in a Luger that has never been matched by any other handgun. Put it side by side with any other and, in almost all cases, we have the beauty and the beast.

I do believe, however, that not a single one of us would refuse to add one of the engraved Krieghoff's to our collection if we could swing it.

I admit, that is somewhat an apples and oranges thing though because there is a lot of difference between something being a historical presentation piece verses being "decorated".

I will look forward to seeing what Maestro digs up on this beautiful Luger as I am sure he will not let it rest in mystery.

Gary

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by alanint

While down in Argentina some years ago I saw several, different WW2 era German presentation pistols. I wrote down the names engraved on each pistol and they all turned out to be bona fide Nazi personalities. Not all engraved presentation guns are post war.

i'm going off topic as far as the Persian contract Lugers, etc.. however, worthy of mentioning since it was brought up.. here's a remarkable example that fetched $74,750 in December 2010. I love the fact that even the screws are engraved! such attention to detail

"One Of A Kind" 1939 WWII German Mauser factory engraved and gold plated Luger pistol. This Luger pistol was owned and presented by two prominent Nazi party members with long time association or affiliations to Adolf Hitler and his rise to power in the early 1930s. Joachim von Ribbentrop was the son of a German Army officer who was born in Wesel Germany in 1893. He served in WWI with the 125th Hussar Regiment where he won the Iron Cross. After being seriously wounded in 1917, Ribbentrop joined the Germany War ministry and became a member of the German Delegation that attended the Paris Peace Conference after WWI. In May 1932 he joined the NSDAP, National Socialist German Workers Party, where he quickly rose in rank and eventually became Hitler's foreign affairs advisor in 1933. Later the NSDAP would evolve into the standard "Nazi Party". He was eventually appointed as the Ambassador to London. He was instrumental in the various pre-war negotiations with France and Great Britain and was also instrumental in the negotiations and signing of the Nazi-Soviet pack in 1939. In June 1945 he was arrested and charged with war crimes but denied any knowledge or involvement in the German Concentration camps and racial extermination policies. He was later tried at Nuremburg at the Nazi War Trials, found guilty and was executed in October 1946. Franz von Papen was born in Werl Germany in 1879, the son of a wealthy landowner. In 1914 he was posted to Washington as a military attaché, however in 1915 he was accused of being a saboteur and was forced to leave the US. He joined the German Army and served as a general staff officer at the outbreak of WWI. After WWI he joined the Catholic Centre Party (BVP) and in 1921 was elected to the Reistag. Two years later he purchased a controlling interest in the leading newspaper "Germania" he attempted to use the paper as means to promote his right-wing policies and was later ousted. He remained a low level political figure until May 1932 when he was appointed as the Chancellor by Hindenburg. Later he lifted the ban on the Sturm Abteilung (SA) and gained considerable support from the Nazi party. Later von Papen persuaded Hindenburg to appoint Hitler as the new Chancellor, and then became the Vice-Chancellor. Later after supporting Hitler after the "Night of The Long Knives" he was appointed as ambassador to Austria in 1934-1939 with an additional posting to Turkey in 1939-1944. In 1945 he was charged with conspiring to start WWII but was found not guilty. In 1947 the German Government charged him with crimes and offences while Hitler was in power and was sentenced to eight years in prison. He served only two and was released in 1949. He died in 1969 in Obersasbach. This pistol was procured for the German Ministry as a standard Commercial Police model, that has the sear safety over the side plate, along with the "Eagle C" police proof on the right side of the barrel extension and the standard "Crown over U" proof on the left side of the barrel extension. The chamber area is stamped 1939 for the year of manufacture with the standard Mauser Banner logo on the front toggle. The entire pistol has been just meticulously engraved with a traditional German Oak Leaf, Acorn and scroll engraving with a punch dot back ground for shading, that covers 99% of the exposed surfaces of the pistol. The only noted area that is NOT engraved is the very upper portion of the rear grip strap. The engraving on this pistol was obviously performed by a Master Engraver as the overall layout and attention to detail it just fantastic and meticulous. The side plate also has a small coat of arms of the Von Papen family. The dark walnut grips have also been hand carved in a large Oak Leaf and Acorn pattern and the left grip carries a small 1 1/2 X 2 1/2 inscription plate that reads; "Seiner Exzellenz/Herrn Botshafter Franz von Papen/in tiefster Verehrung/uberreicht von Joachim von Ribbentrop/Aussenminister des Deutchen Reiches", translated reads, "His Excellency/the Honorable Ambassador Franz von Papen/in deepest dedication/given by Joachim von Ribbentrop/Foreign Minister of the German Reich". This Luger is accompanied by a copy of short letter dated 1986 from Dr. Rolf Gminder a consultant to the Mauser-Werkes factory who had viewed the pistol noting that it was fully engraved in a very high quality style probably executed in Suhl Thuringia and that the gun itself has been gold-plated in the old fashion done around the 1939/1940 in the heat process (Feuervergoldung). This Luger is accompanied by an original Mauser factory leatherette case with green felt interior, that has individual compartments that holds two gold plated magazines the gold plated and carved handle cleaning rod, the gold plate take down tool and a gold plated punch.

[Maestro]

and for the Krieghoff collectors, one of my favorites

This exact Luger is photographed on pages 208, 209 and 211 of the "Krieghoff Parabellum" by Randall Gibson. This pistol as noted in the referenced book, is theorized to be "One of Three" factory presentations Luger that were lavishly engraved, fitted with a set of carved ivory presentation grips and fitted into a special walnut display case. The two other Lugers that were considered as part of this original grouping were found at the Krieghoff factory in Suhl after the war while the third example went missing for years. It is assumed that all three were intended as special Presentation pistols for high ranking German/Nazi officials or specifically for Herman Goering himself, as Goering had close ties to the Krieghoff factory. A copy of a letter dated March 29, 1979 from a former owner of the gun sent to an individual in Midland , Texas, briefly describes the gun and states on page two that "This Luger was purchased from the estate of a close personal friend of General Eisenhower, who obtained it as a gift from the General. At the time it was represented as being one of several owned by Goering. I might further add that the gift was made while General Eisenhower was still in Europe." All three of these pistols have similar embellishments and engraving with slightly different markings and factory finishes. It appears that the other two were also early "P-Code" series 1 Lugers, same as this one, except those had a side frame inscription while this one does not. This pistol is lavishly engraved on over 90% of the entire pistol with a fantastic example of the traditional deep relief, German Oak Leaf and Acorn pattern, with a punch dot back ground with a delicate geometric engraved pattern for the border. The only section of the Luger not engraved is the short center or middle section of the barrel. The layout and level of detail is just phenomenal, superbly executed with minute detail with no over runs or mistakes anywhere, typical German fashion. The actual engraving covers the front and rear grip straps, the sides of the frame, the top of the breech block and toggle assembly, front and rear section of the barrel and the top and sides of the barrel extension. As noted the pistol has been fitted with a set of rear ivory grip panels that have a matching Germanic Oak Leaf and Acorn pattern carved into the grips themselves, which have then been filled with a black enamel in the background to accentuate the detail of the carving. Obviously the final finish is an original gold plated wash that covers the entire pistol. Due to the extensive amount of engraving and embellishment, the only markings on the pistol are the full serial number on the front of the frame, the late "P" type Krieghoff Markings on top of the front toggle assembly with the extractor and safety marked "GELADEN and GESICHERT" respectively. The only proof marks on the pistol are a single "crown N" proof on the underside of the barrel and left side of the extension with a single Eagle 2 Luftwaffe proof on the side of the breech block and the backside of the side plate hump. The pistol is complete with two Gold plated magazines, both unmarked and un-proofed aluminum based magazines, a gold plated takedown tool and the actual walnut display case that the pistol is housed in.

[Maestro]

sold for $69,000 May 2011

[Maestro]

..lastly, i think this is a well written article for those that want to learn more regarding "engraved" Lugers by Klaus Leibnitz called "Collecting engraved Luger Pistols or caveat emptor!" www.leibnitz-online.de/resources/Faked_Luger_Pistols_17.09.04-1.pdf‎
here's a few excerpts:

Collecting engraved Luger Pistols or caveat emptor !
by Klaus Leibnitz
In the last years decorated Luger pistols have appeared on the market, mainly in the US,
but also in Europe and they all appear to be forgeries. This does not mean that the pistols
themselves are forgeries, but it looks as if the engraving or decoration had been done
many years later in order to increase the value of these guns. The following paper tries to
approach the problem of increasing the value of old military weapons by decorating them
from an analytical point of view. After having done this, the fakes are clearly shown for
what they really are, old service pistols nicely made up.
What is called Luger pistol here in this paper refers to the gun which , in Europe, is also
known as the Parabellum Pistole1 or Pistole 08.2
1. The problem of faked weaponry is not a recent one. It is as old as people collect, for a
multitude of reasons, arms and armour. Also, the problem is not only confined to Europe
exclusively, but appears in old Japan, in Persia and the Ottoman Empire, and later in the
US as well.
The reasons for this were not for monetary gain alone. The nimbus attached to a sword
blade by Masamune,3 Muramasa4 et al automatically did transfer itself to the new owner,
who rose in status as an effect of such ownership.
The same holds true to sword blades made by Azzad Ullah of Isphahan, whose blades
were imitated in very large quantities, some of them of such a high quality that it is even
nowadays a problem to separate the real from the fake. As it is, there are so many swords
in existence bearing the Azzad Ullah seal, that he would have to be more than 200 years
old to have produced that many blades.5
In Europe of yore, the problem was a different one. Old weapons were mainly kept in
arsenals, armouries and gun rooms of the noble families and there they were mainly kept
for sentimental reasons (i.e. this was the sword with which our ancestor slew the dragon,
the famous robber NN etc.) The problem started when, during the 18th and 19th century
many an armoury of a noble house, which was impoverished in the course of the
Napoleonic wars and the following revolutions and upheavals, was sold and their
treasures became available and were purchased mainly by rich British and American
1 The term Parabellum Pistole ( from the Latin phrase for war) was derived from the telegraphic address of
the manufacturer DWM
2 This meant the year in which the gun was officially accepted by the Imperial Armed Forces as a service
pistol by an Imperial Cabinet Order.
3 Muramasa was a 11th century Japanese sword smith considered in Japan to have been the best of his craft
4 Masamune of Ise, one of the top Japanese swordsmiths who produced superiour blades which however
were considered unlucky.
5 See G.C. Stone’s Glossary.......