The M1906 Russian Contract Controversy Strikes Again

[Ron Wood]

Not sure what that brings to the Russian/Bulgarian Luger enigma, but after a bit of reflection perhaps it will reveal itself to me. Thank you for your diligent research. It is great to have an European resource contributing to these discussions.

[Vlim]

Ron, thanks

It's actually quite simple: If the pistols were covered by the cartel agreement, DWM would not have been enabled, or allowed, to supply luger pistols to Bulgaria, at least not without consent from Steyr-Mannlicher, in the pre-1914 era.

[LugerVern]

The 1908-1909 time frame is correct, but what that means to us is still up in the air. It helps Albert's case but doesn't hurt the other theories. We have a very very small number of guns that look OK, and many that are obvious fakes.

We know that DWM made very small contracts as small as 300 guns, so a small number of original examples would not be unusual , also both the Russians and Bulgarians are known to make use of items for a long time and a refinished gun is both possible and expected in both cases. So this might explain some of the " fakes" we love to point out.

So here we sit, we haven't found any thing new in a year or so and the best have been at it pretty hard ( Albert, Ed, Ron)

This is a great gun to study in detail.
I honestly like the fact that I have not been able to prove them all fake, even though there are times I think they are.
Every hobby needs such an example, it would be boring otherwise.

Vern

[Norme]

So here we sit, we haven't found any thing new in a year or so and the best have been at it pretty hard ( Albert, Ed, Ron)

Hi Vern, Thats not quite true. Since this issue was last thrashed out , the new Görtz/Sturgess book has been published. Dr Sturgess throws his not inconsiderable weight on the side of the Russian commercial theory. I know that this will not impress Albert, but I think it does tilt the scales. Best regards, Norm

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Norme

So here we sit, we haven't found any thing new in a year or so and the best have been at it pretty hard ( Albert, Ed, Ron)

Hi Vern, Thats not quite true. Since this issue was last thrashed out , the new Görtz/Sturgess book has been published. Dr Sturgess throws his not inconsiderable weight on the side of the Russian commercial theory. I know that this will not impress Albert, but I think it does tilt the scales. Best regards, Norm

Norm, what has not been performed by the critics is deep 'detective' work on this topic. The critics only 'ammo' is a defensive position only stating that the 'Bulgarian theory' is conjecture. It seems that the 'Russian theory' only gives the critics some form of comfort with regards to errors made in the past. If Kenyon agrees with me that the 'Bulgarian theory' has more truth/substance than compared to the old shaky 'Russian theory', what is the problem with the critics believing a much stronger theory? Here is a promenant author accepting a mistake which the critics cannot otherwise handle. It basically means that the critics wish to continue believing in wrong information twisted by other 'experts' when they do not want to look deeper into the culture and heritage of Germany during the imperial era. I agree that 'business is business', but I do think that the Germans would compromise their reputation by selling a foreign government/military a small quantity of surplus firearms during the Imperial era. Such a situation would have placed a large stain on the DWM factory. Whatever a foreign military did with their pistols after delivery is their business.

Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Here is a promenant author accepting a mistake which the critics cannot otherwise handle.

What mistake is that???

It basically means that the critics wish to continue believing in wrong information...

Which wrong information is that???

[Edward Tinker]

Albert you aren't German so unsure why you say things like that?

I guess I need to re-read your posts and figure out why you think this way about the Bulgarians (seriously)

Your style of writing is many times difficult to read and figure out, because you put in a lot of extraneous info about 'certain people', about americans, about how people don't get it etc. Reminds me of a couple of lawyer friends that I know, they have been taught their entire lives that if you can say it in 2 paragraphs, then make sure you say it in 6 paragraphs.

[Ron Wood]

Albert is of German lineage. But then, so am I .

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Albert is of German lineage. But then, so am I .

Thank you Ron for correcting Edward by informing him that I am a German national (born in Munich, Bavaria). I also have some French blood in my veins from my ancestor who was a General in the Napolean army who stopped over in Malta in June 1798 during Napolean's campaign to Egypt. General Count Augustin Daniel Belliard was the Governor of Egypt during the period.

Unfortunately, my German language is rather rusty due to the fact German was not spoken in my family when I was a young kid growing up in Africa. I used to speak French fluently, but most of it has been lost over the years, except that when I go to visit collectors in France where I am able to practice some of the language.

Cheers,
Albert

[Edward Tinker]

Sure, so are many folks here, I have my great-grandfathers German Military Discharge paperwork from the late 1800's

That is what I mean Ron, Albert makes these "American" comments and he speaks German probably only a bit better than I do

[Norme]

Obviously, it is difficult for some collectors to rationalize without fully understanding the culture and traditions of Imperial Germany. Without being racist, Americans will continue to think like Americans and often go along with 'knee-jerk' reactions. The American mentality in regards to the firearms industry is quite different from the German way in the past and the present.

Albert

Hi Albert,
I do understand "the culture and traditions of Imperial Germany". Both my parents grew up in Germany and my three older siblings were born in Berlin. The family spoke German at home and my Mother remained a typical German Hausfrau to the end. However, business is business, and DWM, a privately owned company, was in business to make money. It is not impossible to imagine that if DWM was stuck with a few hundred Bulgarian frames from a production overrun or cancelled contract, that they would seek to recoup their investment by dumping them on the Russian commercial market.
Albert, I've enjoyed our debate, as I'm sure Ron and Ed have, but I urge you to keep it at a scholarly, impersonal level. We will likely never know the truth about these fascinating guns, but along the way, I have learned a lot from you and the others.
All the best, Norm

[Ron Wood]

OK folks, I am enjoying this running discussion on one of my favorite variations. I am digesting once again what has been posted on this forum as well as outside readings. Albert has mentioned a couple of key considerations that had not registered with me before and perhaps are the crux of our disagreement. Please bear with me as I attempt to write my "opus magnum (minimum?)" on this delicious topic. It may take me a couple of days as my thought processes are not as rapid as someone several years my junior, but hopefully they are more deliberate. I will return to this thread when I can compose what I hope will be a meaningful response. "Watch this space for future developments" !

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

OK folks, I am enjoying this running discussion on one of my favorite variations. I am digesting once again what has been posted on this forum as well as outside readings. Albert has mentioned a couple of key considerations that had not registered with me before and perhaps are the crux of our disagreement. Please bear with me as I attempt to write my "opus magnum (minimum?)" on this delicious topic. It may take me a couple of days as my thought processes are not as rapid as someone several years my junior, but hopefully they are more deliberate. I will return to this thread when I can compose what I hope will be a meaningful response. "Watch this space for future developments" !

I can't wait!

Hereunder are some points to consider:

1. Try to explain with some common sense why the Russian Government/Military would prefer placing vague crossed rifles (infantry) on the chamber instead of their national crest?;
2. If the M1900 Russian Contract is viewed as a legitimate Luger (delivered in 1904 after the M1900/03 Bulgarian Luger contract, why does it NOT have a safety marking like the M1900/03 Bulgarian Luger? The Bulgarian variations show consistency whereas the two 'Russian' variations are inconsistent. I suppose that the DWM 'marketing department' would have suggested safety markings to the Russian Military if they had already placed safety markings on the earlier Bulgarian contract. I believe that would be good business by the DWM factory. Maybe nobody knew a single word of Russian at the DWM factory!;
3. Who in Russia could have been the users of these pistols and how many of these pistols are known to have come out of Russia? I am hearing that the Russians are known to keep pretty good records in their (secret) archives, so how come there is not ONE single Russian collector who can say with certainty that these pistols were Russian contract Lugers? Interestingly, there are records from 1853 of those deluxe engraved Colt revolvers that were presented to Czar Nicolas I from Samuel Colt including other deluxe engraved revolvers to various officers and nobles, so how come not a single record exists of those Lugers delivered to the Russian military? There are at least three Bulgarian collectors who can state that the M1906 model is a Bulgarian Luger;

Good luck, Amigo

[Norme]

Dear Albert, If may address a couple of your points. Firstly, you keep referring to the "Russian Government/Military" ordering these Lugers from DWM. No one I know of has made this claim, yet you keep repeating this assertion over and over again. This is a classic "straw man" debating tactic in which one distorts an opponents position so that it can be refuted. It is unworthy of you. We have always maintained that these pistol were assembled by DWM for the Russian civilian market.
Secondly, it is entirely possible that no one at DWM, at that time, was familiar with either Bulgarian or Russian. Remember, this was some years before the mass Western migration of Eastern Europeans triggered by the war and the Russian revolution.
Best regards, Norm

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Norme

Dear Albert, If may address a couple of your points. Firstly, you keep referring to the "Russian Government/Military" ordering these Lugers from DWM. No one I know of has made this claim, yet you keep repeating this assertion over and over again. This is a classic "straw man" debating tactic in which one distorts an opponents position so that it can be refuted. It is unworthy of you. We have always maintained that these pistol were assembled by DWM for the Russian civilian market.
Secondly, it is entirely possible that no one at DWM, at that time, was familiar with either Bulgarian or Russian. Remember, this was some years before the mass Western migration of Eastern Europeans triggered by the war and the Russian revolution.
Best regards, Norm

Hi Norm,

If the (fake) M1900 Russian was ordered and tested by the Russian military in 1904 and the 'M1906 Russian' happens to have similar contract features/characteristics (like the M1906 Portuguese Lugers), then it is safe to say that it was a contract order and not for the civilian market. When Charles Kenyon wrote in 'Lugers at Random' that these Lugers were for a contract to Russia, who is now coming up with the ideas that it was for commercial sales instead and for what reason? Were the M1906 Portuguese Lugers for the civilian market? I am not distorting an opponents position - simply look at the pistol and its characteristics speak for themselves.

Sweet dreams,
Albert

[Michael Zeleny]

Originally Posted by Norme

Secondly, it is entirely possible that no one at DWM, at that time, was familiar with either Bulgarian or Russian. Remember, this was some years before the mass Western migration of Eastern Europeans triggered by the war and the Russian revolution.

As a Jewish-owned company, DWM must have had adequate access to polyglots fleeing pogroms since the 1880s. More importantly, Western and Central Europe never suffered from linguistic ignorance. I know of no examples of European lapses comparable to the offerings of Engrish.com, which is what a Bulgarian spelling looks like to a Russian speaker.

[Vlim]

It would be great to have some contacts in Bulgaria going through the archives there.

About the cartel agreement: One of the first lessons of historical research is to find out whether a particular item that exists today had the possibility to exist in the time frame it was claimed to come from.

With the Bulgarian/Russian luger, the same practice exists. If the cartel agreement between Steyr-Mannlicher and Loewe existed for pistols, then it would be very, very unlikely that any Parabellum pistol was sold to Steyr-Mannlicher controlled areas (like Bulgaria).

So we have established that:
-Mannlicher had the exclusive right to sell military rifles to Bulgaria and Rumania.
-Loewe group had the exclusive right to sell rifles to Serbia and Greece.
-The market for sporting/hunting rifles, pistols and revolvers was open for all players

Which means that
-There was a market for the Parabellum in Bulgaria at the time.
-Loewe/DWM was free to sell Parabellum pistols to any military organization in that country.

[Imperial Arms]

<Moderated> = censorship

Oops, I just remembered that I cannot give any advise or suggestions to the forum 'masters'. Probably, it will be taken as being 'rude' and against their way of thinking.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

<Moderated> = censorship

Oops, I just remembered that I cannot give any advise or suggestions to the forum 'masters'. Probably, it will be taken as being 'rude' and against their way of thinking.

Albert

NO, ALBERT, YOU just got suspended because you are difficult.


Admin

[hgreer2]

Thank you Albert, I almost feel vindicated............

Harry