Help needed dating luger - Page 2

LugerVern · 10-09-2010, 10:20 AM

Can you show us a picture of the front of the frame and the underside of the barrel ?

I would like to see the SN.

I am not fully convinced that this is an early P08.

Vern

BCMike · 10-09-2010, 02:52 PM

I have some more pics and I’m puzzled that I can’t find any serial number in the places they are supposed to be even taking corrosion into account. There is a number “57” (shown) underside of slide and what looks like a number “1” (shown) at the rear underside of slide. A number “57” (not shown) also appears on the frame. I’m assuming the 57 is the last two digits of the non-existant to my eyes serial number. On other pistols I see this done on many parts but on this example only stamped in the places mentioned. Unless a serial number is buried on a part I can’t access there is none on the gun.

Is it possible that this luger was not serial numbered? It seems odd as those couple of places have the two digit numbers. Is it possible that there were mix and match or rebuild parts that weren’t serial numbered?

Regarding playing war with real handguns – I grew up in small town Newfoundland in the early ‘60’s with no thought of today’s paranoia about firearms.Our arsenal consisted of a mixture of very real looking play guns with a few real war trophys mixed in that we snuck out of our dad’s hideaway spots. Two Lugers, A P-38, a couple of Colt 1911’s and a strange I think Russian pistol that had a star on the grip or frame. No ammo involved and back then it’s just the way we played.

If you want close-ups of these pics use the trick of holding down the keyboard ctrl key and rotate the mouse wheel forward.

DavidJayUden · 10-09-2010, 03:04 PM

You know Mike, I've shot Lugers that looked worse. A trigger, side plate and takedown lever, etc. So long as the bore is reasonable (open). It's not like you are risking hurting it.
dju

Vlim · 10-09-2010, 03:37 PM

Same here. Shot a P08 that spent some 30 years in the Neckar river last year. It was overhauled at Mauser after being found, as a sort of 'fun project'. With new springs and a new barrel liner, it is still going strong after some 30 more years

BCMike · 10-09-2010, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Same here. Shot a P08 that spent some 30 years in the Neckar river last year. It was overhauled at Mauser after being found, as a sort of 'fun project'. With new springs and a new barrel liner, it is still going strong after some 30 more years

Interesting. How do you put in a new barrel liner and have it stay 9mm?

lugerholsterrepair · 10-09-2010, 04:18 PM

I was at the Chantilly show this Summer and a couple of fellows showed up at the table with one about like this only with fresh red rust in most of the crevasses..there were portions that had NO rust at all and you could tell it was a mint pistol before it was rusted. 1915 DWM. A good friend offered to remove the rust with an acid bath so I took him up on it. When I saw it next it was blackned but all the rust was gone. I had to hammer it apart...once I got it all apart I wire brushed every part and inspected it. I had to change out the flat sear spring, the flat mag release spring and the trigger. A couple of links on the mainspring broke off but I didn't have another so I just put it back in. Didn't seem to affect it. Magazine has deep rust on it but it still works..an all matching pistol too!
It's completely in the white now but I shot 100 rounds thru it with no problems. for a $50 Luger it's a good shooter!

Jerry Burney

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 10:25 PM

alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

alanint · 10-11-2010, 10:50 PM

Don't even remember making that silly comment...thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

Vlim · 10-09-2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Interesting. How do you put in a new barrel liner and have it stay 9mm?

Loctite, according to the owner. They made a bet with the supplier, he won

wlyon · 10-09-2010, 07:24 PM

The barrel is bored out to fit the liner. Looks like a good desk ornament. You can spend a lot of money on it and still not have much. To me more value the way it is. Just one collectors opinion. Bill

DavidJayUden · 10-09-2010, 08:07 PM

Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts.
dju

BCMike · 10-10-2010, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts.
dju

I value my hand a bit more than that. If you saw this pistol up close you would hopefully see it as more of a conversation piece. I'm really trying more to get answers to my original questions about the age etc. rather than thinking about actually shooting it.

DavidJayUden · 10-10-2010, 12:55 AM

OK. Good luck.
dju

Edward Tinker · 10-10-2010, 08:07 AM

Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get...

You didn't answer where it came from?

As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found?

ed

BCMike · 10-10-2010, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get...

You didn't answer where it came from?

As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found?

ed

Hi Ed,
You said in your earlier post:

"Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930".

I thought it couldn't be after 1914 because it doesn't have the stock lug attachment which I understood was added during 1914. Also I don't think it's possible for a deeply stamped series of numbers to have completely disappeared from the barrel AND the frame. The barrel maybe as it is quite corroded but the front of the frame isn't that bad and absolutely no ghost of an impression there.

The story I just got about this luger is not complete but it was given to my friend by someone who said it was found in a river in Germany without the trigger assembly. What year it was found I don't know yet but from the condition I imagine it was long after the end of WW2. I say WW2 because of the magazine which was in the gun when found. It's hard to nail down these stories as you know and they do tend to change a bit in the re-telling over the years. It has been suggested that German officers about to be captured would remove the trigger assembly and throw pistol and trigger in opposite directions to avoid having a working gun fall into enemy hands but who knows?

BCMike · 10-11-2010, 03:00 AM

I've had a chance to do some reading of posts in the various forums here and most appear to indicate that even early lugers had the serial number stamped on the front of frame and barrel as well as other places.

My burning question is why doesn't this one? Any ideas? Also Is the number "1" and number "57" stamped underside of slide significant? (See earlier pics previous page)

John Sabato · 10-15-2010, 10:40 AM

The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed.

Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced"

BCMike · 10-15-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed.

Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced"

No alteration on the pistol. Also I just realised I didn't have my location showing. I'm a Canuck so BATFE would translate to RCMP.

Vlim · 10-15-2010, 12:36 PM

If it was recovered in Europe sometime shortly after the war, it is possible that the gun was stolen or captured from a German, then had it's serial number removed in order to hide it's identity. A number of defaced/unnumbered pistols have surfaced in Belgium the last couple of years.

If it was a stolen or captured gun, the fact that the side plate and trigger were missing may be explained by someone removing these in order to keep the gun safe against abuse (at home, for example). Since there were quite heavy punishments on the possession of fire arms after the war in most countries, it is not unlikely that someone got cold feet and eventually decided to ditch the gun.

10-09-2010, 04:18 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,134 Times in 1,439 Posts	I was at the Chantilly show this Summer and a couple of fellows showed up at the table with one about like this only with fresh red rust in most of the crevasses..there were portions that had NO rust at all and you could tell it was a mint pistol before it was rusted. 1915 DWM. A good friend offered to remove the rust with an acid bath so I took him up on it. When I saw it next it was blackned but all the rust was gone. I had to hammer it apart...once I got it all apart I wire brushed every part and inspected it. I had to change out the flat sear spring, the flat mag release spring and the trigger. A couple of links on the mainspring broke off but I didn't have another so I just put it back in. Didn't seem to affect it. Magazine has deep rust on it but it still works..an all matching pistol too! It's completely in the white now but I shot 100 rounds thru it with no problems. for a $50 Luger it's a good shooter! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-09-2010, 07:24 PM	#10
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,673 Thanks: 3,243 Thanked 2,658 Times in 988 Posts	The barrel is bored out to fit the liner. Looks like a good desk ornament. You can spend a lot of money on it and still not have much. To me more value the way it is. Just one collectors opinion. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

10-15-2010, 10:40 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,309 Times in 1,098 Posts	The ONLY Lugers I have personally ever seen that didn't have a serial number on the front of the frame were guns that had obviously had their number removed (Defaced). Often, the evidence of this is that when the gun is properly assembled, the upper receiver protrudes forward of the lower frame but what amounts to about the same depth (or deeper) than the depth of the numbers that were removed. Possession of a gun with a defaced serial number might be considered to be a problem by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives... (BATFE)... Better check their website and search for "defaced" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

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10-09-2010, 10:20 AM	#1
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Can you show us a picture of the front of the frame and the underside of the barrel ? I would like to see the SN. I am not fully convinced that this is an early P08. Vern

10-09-2010, 02:52 PM	#2
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have some more pics and I’m puzzled that I can’t find any serial number in the places they are supposed to be even taking corrosion into account. There is a number “57” (shown) underside of slide and what looks like a number “1” (shown) at the rear underside of slide. A number “57” (not shown) also appears on the frame. I’m assuming the 57 is the last two digits of the non-existant to my eyes serial number. On other pistols I see this done on many parts but on this example only stamped in the places mentioned. Unless a serial number is buried on a part I can’t access there is none on the gun. Is it possible that this luger was not serial numbered? It seems odd as those couple of places have the two digit numbers. Is it possible that there were mix and match or rebuild parts that weren’t serial numbered? Regarding playing war with real handguns – I grew up in small town Newfoundland in the early ‘60’s with no thought of today’s paranoia about firearms.Our arsenal consisted of a mixture of very real looking play guns with a few real war trophys mixed in that we snuck out of our dad’s hideaway spots. Two Lugers, A P-38, a couple of Colt 1911’s and a strange I think Russian pistol that had a star on the grip or frame. No ammo involved and back then it’s just the way we played. If you want close-ups of these pics use the trick of holding down the keyboard ctrl key and rotate the mouse wheel forward.

10-09-2010, 03:04 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	You know Mike, I've shot Lugers that looked worse. A trigger, side plate and takedown lever, etc. So long as the bore is reasonable (open). It's not like you are risking hurting it. dju

10-09-2010, 03:37 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,205 Posts	Same here. Shot a P08 that spent some 30 years in the Neckar river last year. It was overhauled at Mauser after being found, as a sort of 'fun project'. With new springs and a new barrel liner, it is still going strong after some 30 more years

10-11-2010, 10:25 PM	#7
whcoyote User Join Date: May 2008 Location: SW Virginia Posts: 75 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	alanint: Go back and read the last paragraph of your Post #7, above.

10-09-2010, 08:07 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Don't automatically assume that it needs to be re-sleeved. Try it first and you may find that it shoots just fine. Visual inspection of the lands and grooves it usually sort of a waste of time in predicting group size. And besides, if it goes bang that's what counts. dju

10-10-2010, 12:55 AM	#13
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	OK. Good luck. dju

10-10-2010, 08:07 AM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,974 Thanks: 2,072 Thanked 4,608 Times in 2,123 Posts	Well, the serial number and suffix would be on the front of the frame, if rusted away; then the answer I gave you is about as close as you are going to get... You didn't answer where it came from? As it has a later WW2 era magazine, I wondered where it was found? ed

10-11-2010, 03:00 AM	#16
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've had a chance to do some reading of posts in the various forums here and most appear to indicate that even early lugers had the serial number stamped on the front of frame and barrel as well as other places. My burning question is why doesn't this one? Any ideas? Also Is the number "1" and number "57" stamped underside of slide significant? (See earlier pics previous page)

10-15-2010, 12:36 PM	#19
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,991 Times in 1,205 Posts	If it was recovered in Europe sometime shortly after the war, it is possible that the gun was stolen or captured from a German, then had it's serial number removed in order to hide it's identity. A number of defaced/unnumbered pistols have surfaced in Belgium the last couple of years. If it was a stolen or captured gun, the fact that the side plate and trigger were missing may be explained by someone removing these in order to keep the gun safe against abuse (at home, for example). Since there were quite heavy punishments on the possession of fire arms after the war in most countries, it is not unlikely that someone got cold feet and eventually decided to ditch the gun.