DWM Commercial 1911-1913 (?)

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by postino

I think this is the first 5-digit commercial serial w/o letter that I've seen...

Is that odd??? (The serial, I mean...not my lack of seeing)...

you never see a five digit with a suffix letter (a few exceptions, my OPM police luger is an example); but commercial didn't come with suffix's.


Ed

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

you never see a five digit with a suffix letter (a few exceptions, my OPM police luger is an example); but commercial didn't come with suffix's.


Ed

Ed - You're saying that 5-digit commercial didn't come with suffix, correct??? (My 4-digit commercial DWM does have suffix)...

[MFC]

Pistino,
Commercials were numbered starting with #1 to #92000 with no suffix. Then they switched to the military style (not placement) of numbering begining at 2000i... the equivalent of 92000.

[klaus 3338]

I may thank you all for the nice words.
Postino, the affected parts had to be replaced.

For Bill Lyon ``-.'#+**>!&%)))%´°^^Êmµm= a big thanks of an alien

[Pistol]

Could post #6 last three photos of barrel/reciever be Nazi Z's that were added later. See on both sides of the #51?

Or are these marks part of the original marks when the gun was manufactured 1911-1913?

What is the estimated manufactured date based on the serial #?

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by klaus 3338

Postino, the affected parts had to be replaced.

...But what happened to the defective parts???

(I'm assuming the worker was shot)...

[Ron Wood]

They are original marks, there is no Nazi connection. It is hard to say when it was manufactured, but assuming an even production rate would place it toward the end of 1911.

[Pistol]

Thanks Ron - that goes along with the Holster which is:

AWM-3-11

[John Sabato]

Here is a photo borrowed from another thread that will identify the location of the holdopen device. If yours doesn't have this part, it will not remain open after the last shot.

[Pistol]

John and Ron -

I'm almost certain it does not have the hold open. I'm going to post some photos to confirm. There is not evidence on the right side above the trigger either.

[Pistol]

I don't see a hold-open and no evidence of rework pin above the trigger

[klaus 3338]

Pistol, have you ever heard of the Landau list? In 1914 all P08 should get the hold open and a new front size. All Prussian P08 got both, most of the P08 of the kingdom of Württemberg but none of the Bavarian Army. At that time the Great War started. I can´t say what happened with the P08 of Saxony.
The Bavarian Artillery depots had to enumerate all the P08 and send the list to the royal Bavarian Feldzeugmeisterei. (By the way: is there anyone who could translate if I would write in German? Often I´m missing the right words and so I do not write all that what I would write if I would write in German- terrible English- I know.) One of these lists is the (Bavarian) Landau list. The members of Stills forum will remember that I found five Lugers with the regiment marks on the list. On this list are enumerated some more than 2500 Lugers. AND NOW- there are many commercial Lugers listed which belonged to the officers of the Bavarian regiments of the Landau Artillery depot.
The number of your gun is 58739- listed there are in the Landau list for example following numbers which are very close to your pistol: 58735 (only 4 numbers of your gun); 58763, 58806, 58810, 58813, 58828 and 58851 (and there are many more).
I also picked up and observed here in Germany that it was the practice that the officers, who must pay for their own P08 with their own money, got Luger of the commercial production. It was the absolute exception if they got an Imperial accepted Luger.
Without any question was your Luger bought by a Bavarian officer.
I hope that you appreciate this information.

Best regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Klaus -
I very much appreciate your information and input as always. Klaus if you have much more info that is easier for you to type in German, please feel free do so. I can copy and paste your post, and then hit translate to English in a word document. I think(?)

Klaus-
Do you recall discussing the AWM 3-11 holster that came with this gun in the holster forum? You told me it was Bavarian and we discussed the regiments stamped on the holster. The german that submitted this gun said he was the Oberbürgermeister von München.

Please see the thread where you posted the photo of your grandfather in the holster thread.This is thread where we discussed the regiments.

Also, I found out that there was a .22 barell with this gun. Did the .22 barrel come later during the 1930-1940's, or were there .22 barrels during Imperial times?

[klaus 3338]

Pistol,
your P08 is not at the Landau list. Because of the unit stamps on the flap of the holster it is not possible. The 16. Inf. Regiment and the 2. Reserve Inf. Regiment were part of the 1. Bavarian Armycorps with it´s Artilleriedepots in Augsburg and München.
Landau was with Germersheim and Würzburg the Artilleriedepot of the 2. Bavarian Armycorps.

The order for dyed black the holsters don´t tell us the reason for it- sorry but I`m not able to answer your question.

I tried to find out the Regiment of Fiehler- I wasn´t able. If I would like to know it I would buy the regiment history of the 2. Bavarian Res. Inf. Reg. and if I couldn´t find him there I would try it with the 16. Bavarian Inf. Reg.

Regards Klaus

[Pistol]

- So, my gun is not on the Landau becasue it went to a regiment that was part of Ist Bavarian Army Corps.

The other lugers with similar serial numbers 58763, 58806, 58810, 58813, 58828 and 58735 were sent to regiments that were part of the 2nd Bavarian Army Corps.

Therefore, the guns were made around the same time (similar serial numbers), but were sent to different regiments with different artilleriedepots.

Is there a list for Artilleriedepots in Augsburg and München?

- So, about the black dye holsters. It is known that there was an order in 1915 to dye them black, but the reason for the black dye is unknown. Was the order for all holsters to be dyed black, or only for certain regiments? Was the order given by the commander? Does the fact that the holster was dyed black in 1915 indicate it was still being used by an active soldier at the time?


- "I would buy the regiment history of the 2. Bavarian Res. Inf. Reg. and if I couldn´t find him there I would try it with the 16. Bavarian Inf. Reg."

Where can I buy?




Thanks again Klaus.

[klaus 3338]

Pistol,
um auf Ihre Frage eine Antwort geben zu können, muss ich etwas weiter ausholen und erlaube mir, das in Deutsch zu versuchen. Leider muss ich davon ausgehen, dass die Übersetzung, die ich nicht einmal kontrollieren kann, mit Fehlern behaftet sein wird. Mir fehlt einfach das richtige Gefühl für den Gebrauch der englischen Sprache.

Die besagte Landauer Liste entstand infolge der Verfügung des Allgemeinen Kriegsdepartments des Preußischen Kriegsministeriums vom 6. Mai 1913, die den Einbau des Kammerfangs und den Austausch des Korns, zum Erreichen der einheitlichen Visierschussweite von 50 m, vorsah.
Das Königreich Bayern entschied sich durch Verfügung des bayrischen Kriegsministeriums vom 2. März 1914 erst 10 Monate später zu dem gleichen Schritt; wie wir wissen zu spät, da am 1. September der 1. Weltkrieg ausbrach. Die Königreiche Sachsen und Württemberg waren hier wohl schneller mit ihrer Entscheidung; zumindest für Württemberg ist gesichert, dass die Pistolen nur teilweise umgebaut werden konnten. Zur Sachlage in Sachsen fehlen mir leider jegliche Hinweise.

Um die Anzahl der zu ändernden P08 festzustellen, beauftragten die Artilleriedepots die ihnen zugewiesenen Regimenter mit der Auflistung der zu ändernden Pistolen. Die den einzelnen Königreichen gehörenden Pistolen sollten natürlich alle geändert werden. Bei den dem Privatbesitz der Offiziere zuzuordnenden Pistolen wurden den Besitzern die Möglichkeit der Änderung zum Preis von 2,80 Goldmark angeboten, entscheiden durften sie natürlich selbst, ob sie die Änderung durchführen lassen wollten oder nicht. 16500 Pistolen des Königreiches Bayern neben ca. 500 P08 aus privatem Besitz wurden letztendlich der Gewehrfabrik Erfurt zur Änderung mitgeteilt.
Es liegen im Kriegsarchiv des Bayrischen Hauptstaatsarchivs noch mehrere Listen der bayrischen Artilleriedepots vor, doch weisen diese im Gegensatz zur Auflistung aus Landau nur sehr vereinzelt die Waffennummern aus. Anders bei der Landauer Liste. Hier wird den einzelnen Regimentern und Ersatzformationen penibel die Waffennummer zugeordnet. Dieser Aufstellung können wir unter anderem entnehmen, dass der 1. Ersatz M.G. Kompagnie des II. Armeekorps 189 P08 zugeordnet waren, oder, dass den einzelnen Bataillonen des Bayrischen 18. Infanterie Regiments unterschiedliche Mengen an Ordonnanzpistolen zustanden (43, 44 und 45 Stück).
Die Sache hat aber einen Haken; die Waffenmeister der einzelnen Regimenter unterschieden weder nach Hersteller, noch nach dem Herstelldatum und vergaßen zudem oft den Buchstaben zur Seriennummer, so dass wir nur dann einen wirklichen Überblick erhalten, wenn wir anhand der Truppenstempel zweifelsfrei mehrere Pistolen den Auflistungen der Regimenter zuordnen können.

Und jetzt zu Ihrer zivilen DWM mit Nr. 58739 und der dazugehörigen Tasche. Wenn die Tasche nicht zur Pistole gehören sollte, sondern erst später, vielleicht durch einem Sammler, zur Pistole gekommen wäre, wäre es durchaus möglich, dass die Pistole an eine Formation, ein Regiment, des Kgl. Bay. 2. Armeekorps ausgegeben wurde, vielleicht sogar an ein Regiment, das zum Landauer Artilleriedepot zählte. Dann aber hätte sich der Offizier gegen die Ausführung der Änderung an seiner Pistole entschieden, da Sie auf der Liste nicht geführt wird.
Ich aber gehe davon aus, dass P08 und Tasche zusammengehören; nachweisen lässt sich das aber aus den oben geschilderten Gründen nicht.

Aber immerhin stärkt die in der Liste aufgeführte Seriennummer 58763 die Vermutung, dass Ihre Waffe an das 2. Bayrische Armeekorps geliefert wurde.

Nun noch zur Frage der geschwärzten Taschen.
In 1915 wird im Armee- Verordnungsblatt dreimal über Pflege und/oder Schwärzen berichtet. Es gab eine Allerhöchste Kabinettsorder vom 21. September, der schon am 27. September eine Anleitung zum Schwärzen der Taschen folgte. Solche Befehle galten in diesem Fall für die Bedarfsträger der Ordonnanzpistole und nicht für die mit der P08 ausgerüsteten Offiziere. Die Taschen der Offiziere bleiben bis in den 2. Weltkrieg hinein braun.

Ich würde in jedem Fall davon ausgehen, dass nachträglich geschwärzte Taschen mit Herstellung vor 1915 in 1915 auch in Gebrauch waren. Davon abgesehen möchte ich bemerken, dass wohl nur ein ganz geringer Prozentsatz der in 1915 getragenen Taschen auch geschwärzt wurde. Ich habe bestimmt noch mehr als 50 Taschen der Jahre 1909- 1911 und nur drei davon wurden nachträglich geschwärzt.
Wenn man selbst heute noch über die Schlachtfelder des 1. Weltkrieges geht, oder sich die zeitgenössischen Fotos davon ansieht, mag man sich vorstellen, dass den Soldaten damals im Grabenkrieg ganz andere Sorgen quälten, als ihre Schuhe und das andere Lederzeug zu schwärzen!

Zur letzten Frage: Ich kann von hier aus natürlich nicht beantworten, ob es in den Staaten möglich ist, die in Frage kommenden Regimentsgeschichten käuflich erwerben zu können, doch sollte es über einen längeren Zeitraum hin möglich sein, diese hier in Deutschland zu erwerben.
Da der Name des vermeintlichen Besitzers ja bekannt ist, sollte es selbst für jemanden ohne Deutschkenntnisse möglich sein, die Regimentsgeschichten nach dem Namen zu durchforsten.

Best regards Klaus

[jamese]

I took the liberty to Translate through "BABEL FISH" so I could read it and just posted here for for others. For those that have a better understanding of German, fell free to correct any issues, however I think the translation explains it well

Pistol,
in order to be able to give on your question an answer, I must draw back somewhat further and take the liberty to try into German. Unfortunately I must assume the translation, which I cannot even control will be afflicted with errors. Simply the correct feeling for the use of the English language is missing to me.

The mentioned Landauer list developed due to the order of the general war department of the Prussian war Ministry from 6 May 1913, which planned the installation of the chamber catch and the exchange of the grain, for reaching the uniform range for direct fire of 50 m. The Kingdom of Bavaria decided by order of the Bavarian war Ministry from 2 March 1914 only 10 months later to the same step; as we know too late, since on 1 September the 1st world war broke out. The Kingdoms of Saxonia and Württemberg were here probably faster with their decision; at least for Württemberg it is secured that the pistols could be only partly converted. To the state of affairs in Saxonia unfortunately any references are missing to me.

In order to determine the number of P08 which can be changed, the artillery depots assigned them assigned regiments the listing of the pistols which can be changed. All should be naturally changed for the individual Kingdoms of belonging pistols. With that pistols which can be assigned the owners the possibility of the change for the price of 2,80 Goldmark, to decide were allowed they naturally were offered to the private property of the officers whether they would drive through the change to leave wanted or not. 16500 pistols of the Kingdom of Bavaria beside approx. 500 P08 from private possession were finally communicated to the Gewehrfabrik Erfurt for change. Still several lists of the Bavarian artillery depots are present, but point these contrary to the listing from Landau only much isolate the weapon numbers out in war archives of Bavarian main public records. Differently with the Landauer list. Here precisely the weapon number is assigned to the individual regiments and spare formations. We can infer from this list among other things that the 1st replacement M.G. 189 P08 were assigned to Kompagnie of the IITH army corps, or that the individual battalions Bavarian 18. Infantry of regiment different quantities of Ordonnanzpistolen were entitled (43, 44 and 45 pieces). The thing has however a hook; the weapon masters of the individual regiments distinctive neither according to manufacturer, nor after the date of manufacture and forgot besides often the letters to the serial number, so that we receive a real overview only if we can assign on the basis the troop stamps free of doubts several pistols to the listing of the regiments.

And now to your civilian DWM with No. 58739 and the pertinent bag. If the bag should not belong to the pistol, but a collecting tank, to the pistol, would be quite possible it would have come only later, perhaps through that the pistol to a formation, a regiment, the Kgl. Bay. 2. Army corps was spent, perhaps even to a regiment, which ranked among the Landauer artillery depot. Then however the officer would have decided against the execution of the change at his pistol, since you on the list one does not lead. I however assume P08 and bag belong together; to prove does not leave itself however for the reasons described above.

But the serial number 58763 the assumption specified in the list nevertheless strengthens that your weapon was supplied to the 2nd Bavarian army corps.

Now still to the question of the blackened bags. In 1915 in the army official gazette is reported three times on care and/or blacknesses. There was a all-highest cabinet order from 21 September, which already followed on 27 September a guidance to blackening the bags. Such instructions were valid in this case for the users of the Ordonnanzpistole and not for with the P08 of equipped officers. The bags of the officers remain brown into the 2nd world war inside.

I would assume in each case later blackened bags with production were 1915 ago in 1915 also used. Apart from it I would like to notice that probably only a completely small percentage of the bags carried in 1915 was also blackened. I have certainly still more than 50 bags of the years 1909 - 1911 and only three of it were later blackened. If one goes today still over the battlegrounds of the 1st world war, or of it one regards, may the contemporary photos introduce itself that in the trench warfare completely different concerns tormented the soldier at that time, blacken as its shoes and other leather things!

To the last question: I can be possible from here from naturally not answer, whether it is possible in the states to be able to acquire which are applicable regiment stories available but should it during a longer period to acquire these here in Germany. Since the name of the alleged owner admits is, it should be possible for someone without German knowledge to sift regiment stories after the name.

Best regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Thank you very much Klaus for the information. You are like an Encyclopedia. And thanks to jamese for the translation. I had translated through another site, and was going to post today in English for others. There were some mimor variations in my translation, but it helped me to see both translations to get the best meaning. These computer translations seem to do a good job, but loose a little of the intended meaning in the translation.

On the hold-open and site. Either the officer did not have time to have it sent in for the modifications, or did not want to pay the 2.80 gold mark for the change.

Regarding the black dye. If I understand correctly there was a 1915 order about care and blackening of holsters. Blackening was more applicable to the Ordonnanpistole and not the officer's PO8 holsters, which typically remained brown. Furthermore, based upon Klaus's collection of 50 holsters dating from 1909-1911, only three of these were blackened.

So, it is possible then that my 1911 holster in question was blackned shortly after the 1915 order, and the black dye would be consider consistent with that period. However, it is more likely that it was blackned years later subsequent to WWI.

So, the owner served in the 1st Battalion of the Bavarian 16th Intantry Regiment, or in the 2nd battalion of the Bavarian 2nd Reserve Infantrie Regiment. And both of these were part of theBavarian 1st Army Corps. I saw in a post by Jan Still, that the 16th infantry Regiment was part of the 1st, 10th, and 11th Bavarian Infantry Divisons during WWI. It was part of 1st 1914 to March 1915, when it joined the 10th Bavarian Division. It became part of 11th Bavarian Div. in August 1918. Is this the same 16th Bavarian Regiment on the holster. Jan has a good timeline on his post. I want to ensure I don't have this confused with a differnt regiment.

[klaus 3338]

Pistol,
It could have been during the Great War that a regiment was in several Infantry divisions but before the war two Infantry regiments made an Infantry Brigade and two Brigades made an Infantry Division.

I attach some photos of blacked holsters according the 1915 dated order.

The first three photos are showing a brown holster of the 2 squadron of the Dragoon Regiment No. 22. The next photos are showing a blacked holster of the 1 squadron of the same Regiment.

The next two photos are showing a blacked Bavarian holster.

Regards Klaus

[Pistol]

Interesting. Is the inside of the top flap ever blackend on the 1915 blackend holsters? I ask becasue my holster is dyed black on the inside flap/top. But the inside portion where the gun fits in is dark brown. Just like your photos.

If the inside top flap was never blackend, would that mean my holster was blackened years later after WWI?

In your final photo. Why does that holster have a significant portion brown on the right. Did the black dye wear off, or was it not blackend completly/entirely?

Was the holster stitching also blackend or left white.

Thanks again.