Help identifying this gun.

[Doug G.]

What is this gun? Looks like a cross between a M-96 and a Luger. Gun reportedly has Mauser banner markings. I am trying to help someone identify it. A rather odd looking gun.

[fg42]

Looks like a Chinese or Kiber Pass copy to me. The give away would be the Quality of the machine work and polish which wouldn't be very high. Bob Benson

[John Sabato]

looks like a little Colt 1911 was thrown into the mix as well. I would love to see more photos of this mongrel pistol...

[Head Tomcat]

Doug...thanks for posting the pic I sent you! Here is some detailed information on this weird duck.......

A neighbor gave me a very old Mauser pistol several days ago and for the life of me I cannot identify exactly what it is. Overall, it looks like a cross between a Luger (the frame) and a C96/Bergmann (the slide). Here are the specifics:

1. It appears to be .30 Luger caliber...but there are no caliber markings on it. I need to make a chamber cast to be sure.
2. The barrel is fully enclosed by the barrel sleeve. Also, the barrel is in the white and not blued.
3. The grip frame is very similar to a P08 Luger. Machining cuts, design, etc. are fairly close.
4. The serial number is 914xx...there is no suffix letter. Also, there is no date on it anywhere. Neither are there any proof marks, waffenamt stamps, inspection stamps, etc. However, most all of the parts are numbered with the last two digits of the serial number. Finally, all numbers - including the wood grips - match.
5. There are no import marks on it, nor is "Germany" stamped on it anywhere.
6. The two mags which come with it look similar to Luger mags, including the circular wood piece on the bottom. They are not numbered, however.
7. The front sight is adjustable for windage via drifting.
8. The rear sight is a tangent ladder style and unusually has increments in both yards (800 yds) and meters (700 m) engraved into it.
9. The two piece wood grips are also very similar to a Luger's.
10. The operating system appears to be some kind of simple blowback while the trigger system appears to be single action. I cannot detect any cam/ramp/link unlocking as the slide is retracted.
11. The standard "Mauser" name is stamped over the chamber. It appears inside an sunburst oval and is not a "banner" like I have seen on Lugers
12. The magazines appear to hold about 8 rounds.
13. The bluing on it is in excellent shape and is typical of pre-WWI type finishes...it looks first class indeed! When held at an angle to a light source you can easily detect a light reddish tint in the bluing. The numbers are perfectly clean and indicate no "dishing, dragging, etc.", which could indicate a reblue sometime in the past.
14. The firing pin is removed by pushing out a cross bolt pin from right to left. The firing pin looks similar to a Luger's and is spring loaded. However, the pin itself is much longer and thinner than the stubbier Luger pin. Also, the spring is noticeably flimsier of thinner gage wire.

Overall, after going through a number of my reference books, this pistol looks like it came from the 1898-1910 timeframe and could have been some type of early competitor to the DWM Luger (or perhaps Borchardt Luger) being produced then.

Some friends have said this could be a Chinese clone of the combined key attributes of the Luger, C96 and Bergmann, but, the workmanship and finish is simply way too fine for that theory (to me at least). If it is a Chinese clone made at the turn of the century they must have had designers and machine shops which fully equaled anything in Europe at that time.

Thanks!

[unspellable]

Since it says "Mauser" on it, I would not overlook the possibility that it actually is a Mauser. If so, the next obvious question is, "What model?" If it is a blowback, that would make the 7.65 mm Parabellum an unlikely chambering, it's more likely to be a 32 ACP or some obscure cartridge if in that caliber range. I'll try to remember to look through my references tonight.

[unspellable]

tacfoley, I only meant that if it says "Mauser" on it then it MIGHT be a Mauser.

I have turned up a brief description of a very obscure Mauser pistol, the Model 1906/08 which was recoil operated. It was locked by a pair of flaps or wings that cammed out of the way of the bolt. It is said that mauser made fewer than 100 of this model.

It might be noted that the reason the broomhandles magazine is in front of the trigger is that the locking mechanism is located under the bolt and is somewhat bulky. It occured to me that one could retain the bolt and external hammer and make room for the magazine in the grip by use of the 1906/08 locking system.

I do not know what cartridge the 1906/08 was chambered for. Its rarity probably precludes it from being the pistol above. Which gets us back to tacfoley's supposition that it is an Asian pistol of obscure origins.

[Head Tomcat]

The pistol is now (in my mind at least) almost certainly an Asiatic original design which took features from a number of weapons which were current at that time. The reason I say this is because it finally came apart late last night after soaking it in Kroil for two days. Old grease/oil and congealed funk had literally glued the barrel, bolt and slide together.

The insides are not near as finely finished as the outside. The internals have a lot more machine marks and rough edges (cut the heck out of one of my fingers on the slide rails) and the method of the barrel being retained is unusual....a projecting stud on the bottom of the barrel simply drops into a hole in the lower. I would imagine it would not be as desireable a lockup as needed. Yes, it is sturdy...but it will still allow the barrel to ramdomly move a slight amount with each firing. Accuracy will clearly fall off a bit.

The key indicator was a close examination of the word "Mauser" in the oval which is stamped on the chamber. It was spelled "WAUSER". Yes, you could now say I own the world's only known example of a Wauser pistol. Whoever made the stamp had inverted the "M" and converted it to a "W". This leads me to believe it was either done deliberately in order to try and avoid patent infringement (doubtful) or, whoever made the stamp was simply unfamiliar with the Western/Roman alphabet and did not realize the artwork they were given to copy was in error.

Either way....I am now going to call this hybrid the "Warlord Special". Why?

The pistol is just so unique a design and finely finished on the external side that it remains a work of art. Simply beautiful to say the least and took an immense amount of time to build. The insides are not as well finished but are very serviceable and should work as well as a better-machined firearm. Also, since you do not see the internals unless taking it apart, they would not need to be as well finished as the outside. Sort of a "Chinese prestige piece"?

The final question is what to do with it. I also was given a mint and matching 1916 DWM Luger with the correct (and undamaged) wooden-bottomed mag. I already have an excellent condition BYF 1941 Luger and am wondering is it worth it to sell the DWM Luger and retain the Warlord Special, or, get rid of the Chinese pistol and keep the DWM Luger?

Thanks for helping me out as I am now fairly confident to have solved this case (I think).

The Tom

[Lugerdoc]

I vote for it being a Kyber Pass (present day Pakistan/Afgan) conglomeration of fragments of other pistol designs and most likely in 7.63 Mauser (therefore the Mauser logo) caliber. The national expert on these pistols is Gen. Lew Curtis. He can be reached at Lcurtis@msn.com Good luck,TH

[John Sabato]

If opinions is what you want... I have one. If the pistol is indeed a Chinese or other Middle or Far Eastern Rube Goldberg design, It would IMNSHO be worthless except for its curiosity value. The Matching DWM on the other hand would be a fine WW1 example and worth considerably more...

Just my $0.02

[Ron Wood]

Here is TAC's photo he found in Zhuk's book.

[unspellable]

The barrel's having a lug that drops into a mating hole on the lower makes it sound like a blow back.

The name "Wauser" was probably an attempt to capitolize on Mauser's name while ducking a copyright infringement problem rather than a patent infringement.

The appearance is very suggestive of a broomhandle's bolt and hammer setup. If blowback operated, there is no locking mechanism and the magazine could then be placed in the grip.

Any idea yet as to the cartridge it is chambered for?

[Head Tomcat]

Unspellable,

The photo from the book (#1542) shows a slide which has a very close similarity to mine. In fact, other than mine having a barrel shroud to enclose the large recoil spring (which makes it look like a "fat barrel'), it is almost a duplicate. The key thing which caught my eye were the two long "gripping grooves" which show up on the bottom portion of 1542's slide assembly. Mine has precisely those same two grooves in the same exact location. This has to be more than coincidence. Perhaps maybe from the same factory?

I could not find any locking machanism as the bottom of the bolt is smooth (no ramps, cams, links, etc.) and there is no indication the barrel locks to the bolt or slide, either. It simply has its stud resting in a mating hole in the frame. The recoil spring is fairly heavy to operate and I suspect the builder simply used a very stiff spring to make up for a lack of locking mechanism.

Of note, the hand grip is too small for a European hand and is sized to fit a smaller shooter. It is not a pocket pistol (too big for that) so I am really stretching and thinking it was designed for a physically smaller group of peope...perhaps Asiatic.

Two .30 Luger cartridges came in one of the magazines but I do not have any confidence they are correct for this pistol. More than likely, they would just fit the chamber and the previous owner felt this was "good enough". Lugerdoc suggested one reason for the fake "Mauser" logo may have been to inform the firer that approprite Mauser pistol ammo should be used...which at that time would likely have been the 7.63mm Mauser round. This theory beats anything else I could think up and will be getting some casting material to let the chamber reveal the truth.

Overall, I am probably going to get this pistol in "museum grade" condition with a total disassembly and cleaning, test firing, then sell it in order to retain the 1916 DWM Luger...which has a known value!

The Tom

[unspellable]

The 7.63 mm Mauser is just too hot a round for a blow back, even the 7.65 mm Parabellum is viewed as too much for a blowback. My guess is 32 ACP. But then, who knows?

The recoil or breech spring is in the barrel shroud? is it in tension instead of compression? Or does the entire upper go all the way back? If the entire upper is a solid piece with the breech block inclusive it would have enough mass for a more potent cartridge. (The key to how hot a cartridge a blowback can contain is not the strength of the breech block spring, but rather the mass of the breech block.)

[Head Tomcat]

The spring contained inside the barrel shroud is like that of a Walther PP. It telescopes over the barrel and presses against a shoulder at the front end of the shroud. Thus, when the pistol is fired the entire slide moves to the rear and is restrained by the increasing compression within the spring. The barrel is fixed by the stud/mating hole and just sits there.

Now, if you look at the color photo of the pistol you will see a silver cross bolt towards the rear of the slide. In addition to retaining the firing pin, it also fixes the bolt itself to the upper slide. So, when the pistol is shot, the entire slide moves rearward...including the bolt. The silver "wings" at the extreme rear of the slide (same place as the Mauser C/96) are only to provide a grasping surface to **** the weapon. They are part of the bolt and do not move at all.

The cartridge it uses is definitely a bottle-necked round. You can look into the chamber of the barrel and clearly see where the shoulder is at. Since the cartridge must overcome the mass of the entire bolt/slide assembly - along with the heavy recoil spring - I am now leaning towards a 7.63 Mauser cartridge. Of course, nothing will be fired until I get a good chamber cast and figure out exactly what I have. Since I recently bought a very nice New Hermes pantograph engraver it will be used to properly engrave the caliber on the barrel.

Normally I would never do this to a weapon, but in this case it is probably wise to make an exception to protect the next owner....and me!

The Tom

[Karl]

Kyrie Ellis, a well-known C96 collector, notes that "WAUSER" is often marked on Chinese copies of the C96. KFS

[Lugerdoc]

TomCat, Re a locking system for 7.63 Mauser: These hand made Asian copies did not follow any basic engineering priciples and are not recommended for shooting. I would advise telling any future purchaser that it is not to be shot and that you offer no guarantees or liability. TH

[Vlim]

The use of names that sound like the original names (thus Wauser, rather than Mauser) was simply a marketing ploy to fool buyers (Chinese, most of whom only recognized the style of the markings, not being able to read them).

This is simply an Asian Mauser rip-off. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Ron Smith]

My grandfathers "tractor gun" for on the spot varmint control was a single barrel 12 GA. stamped "Barker". The B was lightly struck and canted to appear to be a P at first glance. Therefore giving the appearance of saying
"Parker".

Ron

[Vlim]

A similar mistake can be found on early Japanese paintings that depict Dutch trading vessels. The Dutch east indies company had a logo that combined the letters VOC. The Japanese would almost always paint that logo upside down, simply because they weren't used to our lettering system.

[Head Tomcat]

USAF General (ret.) Lew Curtis is a collector of Chinese firearms from the 1920's-40's timeframe and he has pretty much pinned down what I have.

It is now established that it is a nationalist Chinese aresenal-made pistol which was probably made just before WWII. Lew said the design features of my pistol are close to what he already has in his collection. Also, several of these were bought new (or had presented to them) in China by US airmen serving over there during the war.

Thus, it is very likely a war "bring back" by one of our guys.

I did some research on the previous owner and it turns out he was in the Army Air Force in the Pacific in WWII and apparently did bring it back with him in 1946.

The pistol is now going to Lew for his collection as it is right up his alley. It has stunning rust bluing and I have considered keeping it, but, Lew is a gentleman and will appreciate it more than I will.

The Tom