To Restore - Or- Not to Restore?

Tundra · 08-15-2005, 05:31 PM

I recently inherited my first 9mm parabellum P-08 from My father, who purchased it from a dealer in NC. I'm more of a 1911 guy and I'm not very knowledgeable about the P-08. Most of what I've learned I found on this site, I've read almost everything I can find and still have yet to determine a manufacture date or how collectible this pistol is. It appears to have all matching numbers (#7754). Just about every single small part has 54 stamped on it. The toggle marking is the Deutsche Waffen und Munitions Fabriken - DWM logo, yet there is no chamber marking. The thumb safety is marked with Gesichert (safe is to the rear, there is no grip safety, or hold open device). The right side of the receiver is marked H. P. 308. The right side has an upright N with a line above it. The frontstrap also has the H. P. 308. and the lug has been ground off the backstrap. The barrel is 10cm and has a commercial proof (#4 on proof sheet 1 or #28 on sheet 3). The suffix µ is on the barrel under the s/n, they are also on the frame below the barrel. Bluing is about 85% and the bore appears to be in excellent condition. I suppose the big question is whether to restore or just preserve this pistol as it is.

- Jim

Edward Tinker · 08-15-2005, 06:09 PM

Jim, welcome to the forum!

there is a lot of controversy on HP marked guns.

Amazingly enough, most of them have ground off stock lugs!!

See this thread: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=12200

I would not restore it, although at 65% that is a pretty blue-less gun...

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 08-15-2005, 06:51 PM

Jim,

Thanks for the notice of another H.P. marked Luger, I'm very excited about it. Ed beat me to the punch on the link to the report on these pistols, I hope it provides you with a better understanding of what you have.

If you have a camera, photos of your Luger and its details will be appreciated. I will have some specific questions for you, particularly about the magazine with this gun, and its witness mark.

Also, you can expect Don Maus to show up in this thread with his own questions for his database.

As far as an answer to your initial question is concerned, it should come as no surprise that I am of the opinion that this Luger is worthy of preservation in its current state.

--Dwight

Tundra · 08-15-2005, 07:07 PM

WOW, A lot of very helpful information. I just inhereted H. P. 308. from my father. It has many similarities with those in your article, except I have not yet noticed any overstamps. Now if I can only find the magazine for it somewhere out there.

- Jim

Tundra · 08-15-2005, 07:13 PM

Unfortunately I do not have the original magazine. I suspect it is long gone. I guess my father got his money's worth. Now I need to figureout what to do with all the ammo I am now reluctant to burn up in it.

- Jim

Dwight Gruber · 08-15-2005, 08:23 PM

Jim,

If you have gone through more than a little bit of this site, by now you will have discovered that one Luger almost always leads to another...

--Dwight

Tundra · 08-15-2005, 11:16 PM

I think I've figured it out now...

Dwight Gruber · 08-15-2005, 11:39 PM

Jim,

Thanks very much for the good selection of photographs. The stock lug grind and front strap unit marks follow the convention of H.P. 495. I'm interested to note that the front of the frame seems to be faced off in the same manner.

Regarding the odd letters stamped under the receiver and on the frame under the grip plates, these are commonly known as Workers' Marks, internal DWM production inspection marks. All letters (except A), some numbers, and various cryptic symbols can be found stamped in various hidden, internal surfaces. Their meanings are undocumented and obscure.

--Dwight

Don M · 08-16-2005, 09:33 AM

Jim,

Thanks for notifying me, as well. I second Dwight's request for photos but you have done an excellent job of describing the gun. One comment - the suffix is a script "u" rather than a Greek mu. This places the gun in the same batch as the other "new" pistols with these marks and characteristics (approx. 7000u - 8000u). It's still not clear to me whether they were among the last manufactured/assembled by BKIW in late 1929 - early 1930 or among the first by Mauser in 1933-34.

Does this pistol have (or had) a sear or mag safety?

You have an authentic "mystery" pistol that has history that we have not yet learned. I think it would be a shame to mess with it.

Don M · 08-16-2005, 10:36 AM

Jim,

Just realized you'd jumped to this thread. Disregard question in other thread about sear and mag safeties --- it doesn't have them. Interesting.

Did your dad say anything about where and how he acquired this pistol? The only clue we currently have about the identity of these marks is from information about where and from whom one of the pistols was captured. Additional information about yours may be very useful.

Edward Tinker · 08-16-2005, 05:25 PM

oh, I see Jim, you actually posted your pictures to here at the HP thread and I made them show:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...0&pagenumber=2

Tundra · 08-16-2005, 05:44 PM

H.P. 308. was purchased in a small gun shop in NC for $600. I am contacting the shop owner to try and learn more (and to try to find it's magazine).

- Jim

Don M · 08-16-2005, 09:40 PM

Jim,

Could you post a good photo of the top of the gun in the toggle area? Yours would be the only one of these without a sear safety. There is none evident in the left side photo but the top photo may show if there was once one that has been removed. Thanks.

Edward Tinker · 08-17-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tundra
Now I need to figureout what to do with all the ammo I am now reluctant to burn up in it.- Jim

oh, that is an easy one, buy a shooter luger and shoot it!

Edward Tinker · 08-18-2005, 10:08 PM

I've got one that I can trade for the H.P.

P. J. Heck · 08-20-2005, 10:25 PM

Tundra, where are you????? I have several vintage and newer sub-guns you can use to burn it in should you like. Going to an event this coming weekend near Pittsburg........... interested????????? By the way, this looks like more color than 65% to me!!!!!!

Edward Tinker · 10-22-2006, 07:56 AM

Nice, if you decide to sell....

I like your cats

Ed

farinacci56 · 04-16-2008, 08:54 PM

Nice gun. I ve got H.P. 135, SN 7445u. I'm a little surprised that although your "H.P." number is 173 higher the SN is 209 higher- I guess they did not get a straight run of Sn's regards MC

sheepherder · 04-01-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tundra

Well, I've managed to hold on to it so far; but I've realized that I'd rather see it become part of a serious collection. It's just something to move around in the safe at the moment. I've decided to post it on gunbroker next week.

Several here have shown interest in it...Why not post some pics and list it in the For Sale section??? With HP in the title so the Luger collectors will notice it...

You can always put it on GB if it doesn't sell...

Michael Zeleny · 04-02-2011, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tundra

Perhaps I could have been clearer, I am willing to entertain offers, and will give preference to board members, which is why I have posted this here.

This is not an auction site. Please move your offer to the "Lugers and Firearms For Sale" section and follow its posted rules.

08-15-2005, 05:31 PM	#1
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Restore - Or- Not to Restore? I recently inherited my first 9mm parabellum P-08 from My father, who purchased it from a dealer in NC. I'm more of a 1911 guy and I'm not very knowledgeable about the P-08. Most of what I've learned I found on this site, I've read almost everything I can find and still have yet to determine a manufacture date or how collectible this pistol is. It appears to have all matching numbers (#7754). Just about every single small part has 54 stamped on it. The toggle marking is the Deutsche Waffen und Munitions Fabriken - DWM logo, yet there is no chamber marking. The thumb safety is marked with Gesichert (safe is to the rear, there is no grip safety, or hold open device). The right side of the receiver is marked H. P. 308. The right side has an upright N with a line above it. The frontstrap also has the H. P. 308. and the lug has been ground off the backstrap. The barrel is 10cm and has a commercial proof (#4 on proof sheet 1 or #28 on sheet 3). The suffix µ is on the barrel under the s/n, they are also on the frame below the barrel. Bluing is about 85% and the bore appears to be in excellent condition. I suppose the big question is whether to restore or just preserve this pistol as it is. - Jim Last edited by Tundra; 04-01-2011 at 08:48 PM.

08-16-2005, 09:33 AM	#9
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Jim, Thanks for notifying me, as well. I second Dwight's request for photos but you have done an excellent job of describing the gun. One comment - the suffix is a script "u" rather than a Greek mu. This places the gun in the same batch as the other "new" pistols with these marks and characteristics (approx. 7000u - 8000u). It's still not clear to me whether they were among the last manufactured/assembled by BKIW in late 1929 - early 1930 or among the first by Mauser in 1933-34. Does this pistol have (or had) a sear or mag safety? You have an authentic "mystery" pistol that has history that we have not yet learned. I think it would be a shame to mess with it. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-16-2005, 10:36 AM	#10
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Jim, Just realized you'd jumped to this thread. Disregard question in other thread about sear and mag safeties --- it doesn't have them. Interesting. Did your dad say anything about where and how he acquired this pistol? The only clue we currently have about the identity of these marks is from information about where and from whom one of the pistols was captured. Additional information about yours may be very useful. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-16-2005, 09:40 PM	#13
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Jim, Could you post a good photo of the top of the gun in the toggle area? Yours would be the only one of these without a sear safety. There is none evident in the left side photo but the top photo may show if there was once one that has been removed. Thanks. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

08-18-2005, 10:08 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I've got one that I can trade for the H.P. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-15-2005, 06:09 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Jim, welcome to the forum! there is a lot of controversy on HP marked guns. Amazingly enough, most of them have ground off stock lugs!! See this thread: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=12200 I would not restore it, although at 65% that is a pretty blue-less gun... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-15-2005, 06:51 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jim, Thanks for the notice of another H.P. marked Luger, I'm very excited about it. Ed beat me to the punch on the link to the report on these pistols, I hope it provides you with a better understanding of what you have. If you have a camera, photos of your Luger and its details will be appreciated. I will have some specific questions for you, particularly about the magazine with this gun, and its witness mark. Also, you can expect Don Maus to show up in this thread with his own questions for his database. As far as an answer to your initial question is concerned, it should come as no surprise that I am of the opinion that this Luger is worthy of preservation in its current state. --Dwight

08-15-2005, 07:07 PM	#4
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	WOW, A lot of very helpful information. I just inhereted H. P. 308. from my father. It has many similarities with those in your article, except I have not yet noticed any overstamps. Now if I can only find the magazine for it somewhere out there. - Jim

08-15-2005, 07:13 PM	#5
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unfortunately I do not have the original magazine. I suspect it is long gone. I guess my father got his money's worth. Now I need to figureout what to do with all the ammo I am now reluctant to burn up in it. - Jim

08-15-2005, 08:23 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jim, If you have gone through more than a little bit of this site, by now you will have discovered that one Luger almost always leads to another... --Dwight

08-15-2005, 11:16 PM	#7
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think I've figured it out now...

08-15-2005, 11:39 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Jim, Thanks very much for the good selection of photographs. The stock lug grind and front strap unit marks follow the convention of H.P. 495. I'm interested to note that the front of the frame seems to be faced off in the same manner. Regarding the odd letters stamped under the receiver and on the frame under the grip plates, these are commonly known as Workers' Marks, internal DWM production inspection marks. All letters (except A), some numbers, and various cryptic symbols can be found stamped in various hidden, internal surfaces. Their meanings are undocumented and obscure. --Dwight

08-16-2005, 05:25 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	oh, I see Jim, you actually posted your pictures to here at the HP thread and I made them show: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...0&pagenumber=2

08-16-2005, 05:44 PM	#12
Tundra User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Oklahoma City, OK Posts: 15 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	H.P. 308. was purchased in a small gun shop in NC for $600. I am contacting the shop owner to try and learn more (and to try to find it's magazine). - Jim

08-20-2005, 10:25 PM	#16
P. J. Heck User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Southeast Ohio Posts: 200 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tundra, where are you????? I have several vintage and newer sub-guns you can use to burn it in should you like. Going to an event this coming weekend near Pittsburg........... interested????????? By the way, this looks like more color than 65% to me!!!!!! __________________ There are no bad guns!

10-22-2006, 07:56 AM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Nice, if you decide to sell.... I like your cats Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-16-2008, 08:54 PM	#18
farinacci56 User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 40 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	H.P. Lugers Nice gun. I ve got H.P. 135, SN 7445u. I'm a little surprised that although your "H.P." number is 173 higher the SN is 209 higher- I guess they did not get a straight run of Sn's regards MC

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